Discussion:
Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for January
(too old to reply)
Mike Frysinger
2006-01-01 11:30:01 UTC
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This is your monthly friendly reminder ! Same bat time (typically the
2nd Thursday once a month), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @
irc.freenode.net) !

If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.

Keep in mind that every resubmission to the council for review must
first be sent to the gentoo-dev mailing list 7 days (minimum) before
being submitted as an agenda item which itself occurs 7 days before the
meeting. Simply put, the gentoo-dev mailing list must be notified at
least 14 days before the meeting itself.

For more info on the Gentoo Council, feel free to browse our homepage:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
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Henrik Brix Andersen
2006-01-01 23:35:26 UTC
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Post by Mike Frysinger
If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.
I would like GLEP 45 [1] - GLEP date format - to be discussed and
voted on.

Regards and a Happy New Year,
Brix

[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0045.html
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Kalin KOZHUHAROV
2006-01-02 04:10:07 UTC
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Post by Henrik Brix Andersen
Post by Mike Frysinger
If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.
I would like GLEP 45 [1] - GLEP date format - to be discussed and
voted on.
[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0045.html
I am not a full time dev, so I cannot vote, but I am for this change.
For the last several years I have been fighting with all possible software and OSes and even
appliancies to implement/display/store ISO-8601 dates.

I realized how good it is since I came to Japan which uses ore or less the same date format.

2006-01-02T13:10+0900

Kalin.
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Grant Goodyear
2006-01-03 16:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: [Sun Jan 01 2006, 05:35:26PM CST]
Post by Henrik Brix Andersen
Post by Mike Frysinger
If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.
I would like GLEP 45 [1] - GLEP date format - to be discussed and
voted on.
I doubt that GLEP 45 really needs a vote by the full council. The lead
GLEP editor's decision should probably suffice for something this
trivial. (Recall that the GLEP process is that the GLEP author let's
the GLEP editors know when a GLEP is ready to go up for approval, and
that it is generally the editors who work out precisely who needs to
approve the thing.)

I'll happily approve GLEP 45, with the exception that I don't know how
to implement part of it. The GLEP Last-Modified string is autogenerated
from CVS, so it's not in the yyyy-mm-dd format that the GLEP requires.
Help?

Thanks,
g2boojum
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Henrik Brix Andersen
2006-01-04 22:06:37 UTC
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Post by Grant Goodyear
I doubt that GLEP 45 really needs a vote by the full council. The lead
GLEP editor's decision should probably suffice for something this
trivial. (Recall that the GLEP process is that the GLEP author let's
the GLEP editors know when a GLEP is ready to go up for approval, and
that it is generally the editors who work out precisely who needs to
approve the thing.)
I see.
Post by Grant Goodyear
I'll happily approve GLEP 45, with the exception that I don't know how
to implement part of it. The GLEP Last-Modified string is autogenerated
from CVS, so it's not in the yyyy-mm-dd format that the GLEP requires.
Help?
Well, CVS doesn't use neither yyyy-mm-dd nor the currently used
format, so the conversion must be done in a commit-hook or
similar.

Perhaps our friendly neighbor Infra knows where this is done?

Regards,
Brix
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Kurt Lieber
2006-01-04 22:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrik Brix Andersen
Well, CVS doesn't use neither yyyy-mm-dd nor the currently used
format, so the conversion must be done in a commit-hook or
similar.
Perhaps our friendly neighbor Infra knows where this is done?
It just uses the standard $Date: $ CVS mojo. Nothing special going on
here. The format it generates is definitely machine parseable, though it
isn't internationalized.

If internationalization is a primary goal of the GLEP, then I'd suggest
simply changing the Last-Modified field to a manual one and having folks
input it directly. If the primary goal is simply to make sure machines can
parse the date, then I'd say it meets that goal already.

I'd really rather avoid using custom hooks or anything that hacks CVS at
all. It's our most critical application, so we try to be extra cautious
about making changes that aren't absolutely necessary.

If there's another way to do this (i.e. manual entry) then I'd rather go
that route and see how it works before looking at hacking on cvs.

--kurt
Henrik Brix Andersen
2006-01-04 22:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
If internationalization is a primary goal of the GLEP, then I'd suggest
simply changing the Last-Modified field to a manual one and having folks
input it directly. If the primary goal is simply to make sure machines can
parse the date, then I'd say it meets that goal already.
The primary goal of GLEP 42 is i18n.
Post by Kurt Lieber
I'd really rather avoid using custom hooks or anything that hacks CVS at
all. It's our most critical application, so we try to be extra cautious
about making changes that aren't absolutely necessary.
Fair enough.
Post by Kurt Lieber
If there's another way to do this (i.e. manual entry) then I'd rather go
that route and see how it works before looking at hacking on cvs.
That's up to the GLEP editors, I guess...

Regards,
Brix
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Lance Albertson
2006-01-02 18:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Frysinger
If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
Gentoo dev list to see.
Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
about any ground breaking enhancements.

Since the council is the closest representation to a leader we have, I'd
like to ask if they can come up with some kind of global goals for 2006
and beyond. You don't need to come up with goals by this meeting if you
haven't had time, but at least by the February meeting. Each group can
have their own goals, but we lack any overall binding goals or
direction. We've brought on numerous devs in the past year, and I have
yet to see a huge improvement in QA or anything else. Numbers aren't
everything. If anything, it makes it harder to maintain good QA.

There's a lot of people out there frustrated with Gentoo because of the
lack of QA and direction. Package foo changes a bunch of config
locations, package bar gets upgraded and causes a bunch of QA
nightmares. At least from an admin point of view, Gentoo has gotten
harder to maintain. Granted, thats a question for Gentoo itself. Who
exactly are we catering to? Power users? New users? We can't satisfy
everyone out there and need to draw a line of how much we'll devote to
keeping the new user from destroying their system, etc.

I'm not sure of the exact solution. Its just been pretty frustrating
lately hearing folks complain about this and that when I know that we
could do so much better. Maybe we're just happy with being where we're
at. I know I'm not. There's a niche that Gentoo fits really well and I
think we should focus on perfecting that niche instead of trying to be
better than distroA or distroB.

Ok, thats all my ranting for today. Hopefully I didn't start off the
next world flamewar :-)

Cheers-
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Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Lares Moreau
2006-01-02 18:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
about any ground breaking enhancements.
Since the council is the closest representation to a leader we have, I'd
like to ask if they can come up with some kind of global goals for 2006
and beyond. You don't need to come up with goals by this meeting if you
haven't had time, but at least by the February meeting. Each group can
have their own goals, but we lack any overall binding goals or
direction. We've brought on numerous devs in the past year, and I have
yet to see a huge improvement in QA or anything else. Numbers aren't
everything. If anything, it makes it harder to maintain good QA.
There's a lot of people out there frustrated with Gentoo because of the
lack of QA and direction. Package foo changes a bunch of config
locations, package bar gets upgraded and causes a bunch of QA
nightmares. At least from an admin point of view, Gentoo has gotten
harder to maintain. Granted, thats a question for Gentoo itself. Who
exactly are we catering to? Power users? New users? We can't satisfy
everyone out there and need to draw a line of how much we'll devote to
keeping the new user from destroying their system, etc.
I'm not sure of the exact solution. Its just been pretty frustrating
lately hearing folks complain about this and that when I know that we
could do so much better. Maybe we're just happy with being where we're
at. I know I'm not. There's a niche that Gentoo fits really well and I
think we should focus on perfecting that niche instead of trying to be
better than distroA or distroB.
Ok, thats all my ranting for today. Hopefully I didn't start off the
next world flamewar :-)
Cheers-
I have been involved with many Volunteer organisations over the last
couple years. Not all computer related. Something Gentoo is notably
missing is a Mission Statement. IMO a Mission statement acts as a beacon
on the horizon, allowing us to have a gauge against which to measure our
progress. In the process of discussing and generating this statement the
issues mentioned above, can be ironed out and/or flamed about.

-Lares
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Lance Albertson
2006-01-02 18:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lares Moreau
I have been involved with many Volunteer organisations over the last
couple years. Not all computer related. Something Gentoo is notably
missing is a Mission Statement. IMO a Mission statement acts as a beacon
on the horizon, allowing us to have a gauge against which to measure our
progress. In the process of discussing and generating this statement the
issues mentioned above, can be ironed out and/or flamed about.
A mission statement only goes so far. The underlying leadership has to
make sure that statement is upheld and kept alive. Too many folks have a
mission statement, but no one ever remembers what it is or abides by it.

I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
It'd be almost ceo-like, but the council is still top dawg. Right now, I
view our group as a bunch of chiefs with no real single leader saying
"lets strive to do this". The main problem is, too many people fear
about such a person could turn into a dictator, so I'm not sure if this
could ever happen. This person would be in constant contact of all the
groups and try to muck together what everyone is doing. They could
suggest things to help minimize user impact, maybe try to join two
projects if they are both working on a similar goal, thus minimizing the
workload. Stuff like that essentially. We need a good visionary. If such
a position were created, I also think that person's sole focus should be
that focus within Gentoo. (i.e. they aren't a major contributor for a
subproject in Gentoo). This position would take too much time for them
to keep those other duties.

Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
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Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Patrick Lauer
2006-01-02 19:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
A mission statement only goes so far. The underlying leadership has to
make sure that statement is upheld and kept alive. Too many folks have a
mission statement, but no one ever remembers what it is or abides by it.
I guess there isn't one driving force behind Gentoo - we have many
differing opinions on things like QA, handling of bugs, ...

It's just that usually Gentoo gets the least in your way when you're
trying
to do something :-)
Post by Lance Albertson
I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
There was this Robbins guy ... remember him? ;-)
Post by Lance Albertson
It'd be almost ceo-like, but the council is still top dawg. Right now, I
view our group as a bunch of chiefs with no real single leader saying
"lets strive to do this". The main problem is, too many people fear
about such a person could turn into a dictator, so I'm not sure if this
could ever happen.
I wonder if any single person would be accepted?
After all there is noone capable of forcing anyone to do anything as far
as I can tell - worst case you fork Gentoo (again) and don't resolve
the issues.
Post by Lance Albertson
This person would be in constant contact of all the
groups and try to muck together what everyone is doing. They could
suggest things to help minimize user impact, maybe try to join two
projects if they are both working on a similar goal, thus minimizing the
workload. Stuff like that essentially.
Communication ... should happen anyway, but it seems to get more and
more
difficult. Another layer of bureaucracy won't help that ...
Post by Lance Albertson
We need a good visionary. If such
a position were created, I also think that person's sole focus should be
that focus within Gentoo. (i.e. they aren't a major contributor for a
subproject in Gentoo). This position would take too much time for them
to keep those other duties.
... and you'd burn out a capable person within half a year I think
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I mostly agree :-)

Patrick
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Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move
Lares Moreau
2006-01-02 19:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
A mission statement only goes so far. The underlying leadership has to
make sure that statement is upheld and kept alive. Too many folks have a
mission statement, but no one ever remembers what it is or abides by it.
I guess there isn't one driving force behind Gentoo - we have many
differing opinions on things like QA, handling of bugs, ...
It's just that usually Gentoo gets the least in your way when you're
trying
to do something :-)
Post by Lance Albertson
I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
There was this Robbins guy ... remember him? ;-)
Post by Lance Albertson
It'd be almost ceo-like, but the council is still top dawg. Right now, I
view our group as a bunch of chiefs with no real single leader saying
"lets strive to do this". The main problem is, too many people fear
about such a person could turn into a dictator, so I'm not sure if this
could ever happen.
I wonder if any single person would be accepted?
After all there is noone capable of forcing anyone to do anything as far
as I can tell - worst case you fork Gentoo (again) and don't resolve
the issues.
Post by Lance Albertson
This person would be in constant contact of all the
groups and try to muck together what everyone is doing. They could
suggest things to help minimize user impact, maybe try to join two
projects if they are both working on a similar goal, thus minimizing the
workload. Stuff like that essentially.
Communication ... should happen anyway, but it seems to get more and
more
difficult. Another layer of bureaucracy won't help that ...
Post by Lance Albertson
We need a good visionary. If such
a position were created, I also think that person's sole focus should be
that focus within Gentoo. (i.e. they aren't a major contributor for a
subproject in Gentoo). This position would take too much time for them
to keep those other duties.
... and you'd burn out a capable person within half a year I think
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I mostly agree :-)
Upon doing some reading about what _exactly_ Gentoo council does, it
seems to me that Gentoo Council is an operations board. I think what
Patrick and Lance are getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we
need to have some form of Governance board. A board that doesn't worry
about implementation details; a board that gives a long term vision to
our project.

I am a big believer is having a common goal to unite all people who work
with an organization. I'm sorry If I am repeating myself, but I feel
this is an issue that is vital to the continued success of Gentoo.

-Lares
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Lance Albertson
2006-01-02 19:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lares Moreau
Upon doing some reading about what _exactly_ Gentoo council does, it
seems to me that Gentoo Council is an operations board. I think what
Patrick and Lance are getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we
need to have some form of Governance board. A board that doesn't worry
about implementation details; a board that gives a long term vision to
our project.
No, we don't need yet another board for this. Just a single voice.
Operating everything by a committee will get us no where but more
bureaucracy and headaches. See my previous email about where this person
would fit in.
Post by Lares Moreau
I am a big believer is having a common goal to unite all people who work
with an organization. I'm sorry If I am repeating myself, but I feel
this is an issue that is vital to the continued success of Gentoo.
Yup, I agree there. I think Gentoo is dying a slow death right now
because of the lack of vision in the past few years. Thus why I brought
this topic up because I'd like to see us move forward with progress.
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Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Simon Stelling
2006-01-03 17:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Lares Moreau
need to have some form of Governance board. A board that doesn't worry
about implementation details; a board that gives a long term vision to
our project.
This sounds very scary to me. Perhaps that's because I'm not sure how
detailed such a plan would be. If our goal is...

* "Make Gentoo the best distro 0n 73h p14n37"
I can only say "what a lame marketing."

* "Make Gentoo the most customizable distro"
I'm pretty sure some users with silly ideas will ask us to implement
the feature/whatever. If we reject their idea, they come up with
something like "But Gentoo is all about customisation!!!111".
(Actually, I was already confronted with such a situation in a
real-world meeting, it was pretty annoying.)
Also, this might not be where everybody wants to go.

* "Let's implement $foo with $bar."
Oh well, then we already have implementational details, which don't
belong into a 'general goal'.
Post by Lares Moreau
I am a big believer is having a common goal to unite all people who work
with an organization. I'm sorry If I am repeating myself, but I feel
this is an issue that is vital to the continued success of Gentoo.
If you replace 'organization' with 'project', I agree. There should be
something like a common goal. However, I don't think Gentoo has to have
one single goal. I'm pretty sure everybody of us has his own ideas where
Gentoo should go and his own motivations which make him contribute. So
why make generalisations? Just as an example:

Taken from the project listing page:

The developer relations Project is an effort to recruit, train, and
manage developers for Gentoo's development structure.

Now let's have a look at the three possible goals I stated above.

* "Make the best distro 0n 73h p14n37"
Obviously devrel's goal somehow supports this, as you can assume that
people spend more time on Gentoo-related work if there is a good
climate, but do you really need a global goal for such a trivial
thing? I don't think so.

* "Make Gentoo the most customizable distro"
I can't see how devrel contributes anything to this goal. Oh, wait a
sec, it doesn't contribute anything to Gentoo's goal? Let's drop it!
</sarcasm>

* "Let's implement $foo with $bar."
See above.

My point is, either you have to generalize each project's goal to a real
triviality or you have to define a goal which doesn't match some
project's goals. Conclusion: Let it be.

Regards,
--
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
***@gentoo.org
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Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 17:28:24 UTC
Permalink
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Simon Stelling wrote:
| My point is, either you have to generalize each project's goal to a real
| triviality or you have to define a goal which doesn't match some
| project's goals. Conclusion: Let it be.

Not necessarily. I just wrote on my blog [1] about this, and got a
constructive comment [2], which I'll talk a little about.

Here's one example of a global goal: Reduce the learning curve of Gentoo
and increase its usability.

This goal would involve a number of projects:

- - Releng would work to ensure that installing Gentoo is as easy as
possible.
- - The documentation team would continue working to make its docs easy to
follow and find.
- - The installer project (as part of releng) will continue making Gentoo
faster/easier to install.
- - The portage team could conduct usability studies of portage (perhaps
with the help of openusability.org?).
- - Similar goes for some GUI / curses interfaces to configuration files
and portage itself, such as porthole, ufed, etc.
- - Others

Thanks,
Donnie

1. http://www.livejournal.com/users/spyderous/68149.html
2.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/spyderous/68149.html?thread=117301#t117301
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Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-03 17:50:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:28:24 -0800 Donnie Berkholz
<***@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Here's one example of a global goal: Reduce the learning curve of
| Gentoo and increase its usability.

That goal is silly and oxymoronic. Reduced learning curve decreases
usability.
--
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Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 18:09:45 UTC
Permalink
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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:28:24 -0800 Donnie Berkholz
| <***@gentoo.org> wrote:
| | Here's one example of a global goal: Reduce the learning curve of
| | Gentoo and increase its usability.
|
| That goal is silly and oxymoronic. Reduced learning curve decreases
| usability.

I disagree. I see that something _could_ become less usable as people
remove more and more features to make it easier to learn, but that's
certainly not a requirement.

As the saying goes, make the common tasks easy and the uncommon ones
possible. Making common tasks easier doesn't necessarily decrease
usability of the whole.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-03 18:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donnie Berkholz
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| My point is, either you have to generalize each project's goal to a real
| triviality or you have to define a goal which doesn't match some
| project's goals. Conclusion: Let it be.
Not necessarily. I just wrote on my blog [1] about this, and got a
constructive comment [2], which I'll talk a little about.
Here's one example of a global goal: Reduce the learning curve of Gentoo
and increase its usability.
The problem here is that the two don't necessarily correlate. They
*can* but many times they don't.

A common thing I have heard about the comparison between Windows and
Linux is this:

In Windows, it is easy to learn how to do the simple things, and
extremely hard to do the complex things, if possible, at all.

In Linux, it is hard to learn how to do the simple things, yet it gets
easier to use the system as one uses it more and more.

As a prime example, I strongly believe that making Gentoo "as easy as
possible" can only come about by reducing its usability. If there is a
large number of choices, no matter how well documented, it isn't easy
for a beginner. The only way I can see to make installing Gentoo "as
easy as possible" is by removing choice and functionality to the point
of it being a few clicks of the mouse and everything being done for you.
The problem is that anything that is stated generally can be taken to an
extreme. If you say "as easy as possible" then I think unattended
identical installations for all Gentoo machines. After all, what's
easier than that?

I would *never* agree to this, nor force any member of any project that
I am a part of to participate in such an endeavour, so you now already
have at least one person opposed to it. Would action be taken against
me? Who knows. The point is that we do not get paid. You cannot force
volunteers to do things they do not want to do.

There are workable solutions to this problem, but none that I see as
very effective for us.

For one, we could leave things alone. This works fairly well for a
project even as large as ours. Sure, there are people out there that
think that this doesn't work, but the truth is that they might be
looking to have Gentoo become something that it is not.

Second, we could "fire" most of the developers and move to a paid
developer pool. This would ensure that developers would do what they're
told.

Third, we could come up with some form of enforcement (CEO, council,
whatever) capable of "firing" developers that stray too far from the
proposed Gentoo goals. This will quickly bring back the "cabal" screams
and will probably result in the very quick diminishing of the Gentoo
developer pool.

I think part of the problem is that many people are forgetting exactly
what Gentoo really is. Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo
is not anything more than a loosely bound group of developers all doing
their own thing in a collaborative and collective manner. You cannot
use corporate thinking to manage such a beast. We don't have mission
statements. We don't have road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings
and market projections. We simply exist. The only way we can give
Gentoo a direction is by restricting what we, as developers, are allowed
to do. The only real restrictions we have right now are "be civil" and
"don't break stuff". Anything beyond that is inhibiting one of our
greatest strengths, our individuality and individual ideas.

Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 19:56:59 UTC
Permalink
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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
| As a prime example, I strongly believe that making Gentoo "as easy as
| possible" can only come about by reducing its usability. If there is a
| large number of choices, no matter how well documented, it isn't easy
| for a beginner. The only way I can see to make installing Gentoo "as
| easy as possible" is by removing choice and functionality to the point
| of it being a few clicks of the mouse and everything being done for you.
| The problem is that anything that is stated generally can be taken to an
| extreme. If you say "as easy as possible" then I think unattended
| identical installations for all Gentoo machines. After all, what's
| easier than that?
|
| I would *never* agree to this, nor force any member of any project that
| I am a part of to participate in such an endeavour, so you now already
| have at least one person opposed to it. Would action be taken against
| me? Who knows. The point is that we do not get paid. You cannot force
| volunteers to do things they do not want to do.

This isn't about forcing you to do things a certain way. It's about if
somebody asked you to make Gentoo easier to learn and use, what would
you do as part of releng? How would you do it?

Perhaps you would have to make some sort of choice of usability over
easy to learn, or vice versa. That's your decision. The council would
just suggest what it would like to see happen to Gentoo.

You're focusing too much on forcing people to do this or that. Why
wouldn't you want to make Gentoo easier to use, or learn how to use?
That's my question.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Grant Goodyear
2006-01-03 23:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Chris Gianelloni wrote: [Tue Jan 03 2006, 12:17:06PM CST]
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I think part of the problem is that many people are forgetting exactly
what Gentoo really is. Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo
is not anything more than a loosely bound group of developers all doing
their own thing in a collaborative and collective manner. You cannot
use corporate thinking to manage such a beast. We don't have mission
statements. We don't have road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings
and market projections. We simply exist. The only way we can give
Gentoo a direction is by restricting what we, as developers, are allowed
to do. The only real restrictions we have right now are "be civil" and
"don't break stuff". Anything beyond that is inhibiting one of our
greatest strengths, our individuality and individual ideas.
[remainder snipped]

Well, that was said much better than I managed.

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
***@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 03:58:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo is not anything more than
a loosely bound group of developers all doing their own thing in a
collaborative and collective manner. You cannot use corporate thinking
to manage such a beast. We don't have mission statements. We don't have
road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings and market projections. We
simply exist.
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.

--kurt
Greg KH
2006-01-05 03:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo is not anything more than
a loosely bound group of developers all doing their own thing in a
collaborative and collective manner. You cannot use corporate thinking
to manage such a beast. We don't have mission statements. We don't have
road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings and market projections. We
simply exist.
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Post by Kurt Lieber
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.
We need a mission statement first :)

thanks,

greg k-h
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 04:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Exactly what a lot of folks will have kittens about; appoint a CEO, leader,
boss, manager, etc. (you know, all those corporate-type words that raise
the hackles of nearly everyone on this list.)

Right now, Gentoo is this gigantic, obese amoeba that just sort of sits in
one place. Different parts of it try to go in different directions, with
the net result being that the whole body never goes anywhere. We haven't
done anything interesting or innovative over the last...year? two years?
We have no effective leadership whatsoever. We spend far too much time
arguing amongst ourselves instead of working as a team towards a common
goal.

We should appoint one person to lead the project. Make sure that person
knows WTF they're doing, are respected by the right developers, has a good
vision for Gentoo and then let them make decisions. Expect people to
adhere to the decisions and, if they don't, invite them to find other
opportunities for their creative outlet.

That person should figure out what Gentoo wants to be when it grows up.
S/he should carefully consult the various stakeholders, look at the
strengths/weaknesses of Gentoo as it stands currently and then figure out
where the best direction is for it to proceed. They should then be
responsible for making sure everyone (and I mean *everyone*) executes
according to this direction. Folks who disagree with the vision will be
able to go their own direction and start their own projects. That's the
beauty of the GPL.

Anyway, I have no illusions of this idea ever being implemented in the
current Gentoo environment. /shrug. It was a good ride.

--kurt
Alec Warner
2006-01-05 05:39:05 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Exactly what a lot of folks will have kittens about; appoint a CEO, leader,
boss, manager, etc. (you know, all those corporate-type words that raise
the hackles of nearly everyone on this list.)
Right now, Gentoo is this gigantic, obese amoeba that just sort of sits in
one place. Different parts of it try to go in different directions, with
the net result being that the whole body never goes anywhere. We haven't
done anything interesting or innovative over the last...year? two years?
We have no effective leadership whatsoever. We spend far too much time
arguing amongst ourselves instead of working as a team towards a common
goal.
I think some people have attempted things that are interesting or
innovative, although they may not have gotten off of the ground quite
yet. I think for instance, that Stuart's webapp-config project is a
good idea, and while I also think his first attempt sucked, that perhaps
in the future it could be a great tool, especially for large virtual
host places. I think it sucks that he has gotten the flack from it here.

The Gentoo Installer is an interesting project, not only for the
graphical frontend, but for the Distro-sponsored Network installer that
is being worked on. I think many distributions lack tools in this area
and we can be interesting and helpful here.

The Portage project has some cool stuff coming up. I realize that the
2.X codebase scares a lot of people away due to it's nature but recently
there has been a lot more active development in features and planning.
Plus there is code in the savior branch to do some "interesting" things :)
Post by Kurt Lieber
<snip>
adhere to the decisions and, if they don't, invite them to find other
opportunities for their creative outlet.
This sounds to me like "if they don't like it then send them on their
merry way" which is kind of a bad attitude IMHO. If they are working
on something it usually is because they are interested. You can't
really say "well your interest is useless so work on something else
instead" and expect them to comply. If they are either going to work on
something they enjoy and contribute to Gentoo or do nothing at
all...well I'll take the former :)
Post by Kurt Lieber
That person should figure out what Gentoo wants to be when it grows up.
S/he should carefully consult the various stakeholders, look at the
strengths/weaknesses of Gentoo as it stands currently and then figure out
where the best direction is for it to proceed. They should then be
responsible for making sure everyone (and I mean *everyone*) executes
according to this direction. Folks who disagree with the vision will be
able to go their own direction and start their own projects. That's the
beauty of the GPL.
If this Gentoo project fails/falters (like you seem to think it is
heading) you are free to do the same, form your own project with it's
own set of rules and leader if you so choose.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Anyway, I have no illusions of this idea ever being implemented in the
current Gentoo environment. /shrug. It was a good ride.
--kurt
I would agree overall that inter-project communication is lacking in
many areas. I also think that people are uncompromising. Everyone is
over-worked, everyone has no time, if you want thing X done, get
cracking...etc... I don't think that is an especially healthy attitude
to getting larger/cooler things accomplished. If there is an entity
that can help "persuade" projects to listen to one another that would be
great, but in the end what can you really do?

Partially I ( as currently still a user at this point ) would like to
see a bit more project management. I see that webapps posted a monthly
meeting reminder to -dev, but how many projects really have meetings
that often? Do they accomplish anything? Should we have someone that
tries to attend most meetings to make sure things are going smoothly, or
going at all? Do we need to have slacking projects that get killed off
by the council as well as "slacker" council members?

More things to consider ;)

Alec Warner (antarus)
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gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec Warner
I think some people have attempted things that are interesting or
innovative, although they may not have gotten off of the ground quite
yet.
That's the problem. Lots of folks have great ideas. Our execution sucks,
though. We also have projects working against each other (or, at least,
not in step with each other)
Post by Alec Warner
The Gentoo Installer is an interesting project, not only for the
graphical frontend, but for the Distro-sponsored Network installer that
is being worked on.
I agree, but it's been "in development" for...I dunno..almost two years now
I think and it's still not released. I'm not slamming the -installer team
-- I think they're a great bunch of guys, but it does point to our
inability to execute.
Post by Alec Warner
The Portage project has some cool stuff coming up. I realize that the
2.X codebase scares a lot of people away due to it's nature but recently
there has been a lot more active development in features and planning.
Again, lots of talk, some code, but nothing we can point to and say, "look!
see that? We did that!!" and be proud of it.
Post by Alec Warner
Plus there is code in the savior branch to do some "interesting" things :)
Post by Kurt Lieber
adhere to the decisions and, if they don't, invite them to find other
opportunities for their creative outlet.
This sounds to me like "if they don't like it then send them on their
merry way" which is kind of a bad attitude IMHO.
This is a harsher way of saying it, but yes, it's exactly what I mean. I
couldn't disagree more strongly that it's a bad attitude, however.
Post by Alec Warner
You can't really say "well your interest is useless so work on something
else instead" and expect them to comply.
No, but you can say, "this is the direction we've decided to go in. We'd
love to have you as part of the team, but if you want to go a different
direction, please take a copy of the source code, along with our blessings
and we wish you the best of luck."

It's great to tinker and experiment with new things, but at some point,
those tinkerings will have interdependencies on other parts of the project.
People will need/want features added to <foo> in order for them to be able
to continue. If those features don't adhere to the overall direction that
has been chosen for the project, then they're taking time and resources
away from that direction, regardless of who does the actual coding.

--kurt
Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-05 06:25:28 UTC
Permalink
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Kurt Lieber wrote:
| On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 12:39:05AM -0500 or thereabouts, Alec Warner
wrote:
|>The Gentoo Installer is an interesting project, not only for the
|>graphical frontend, but for the Distro-sponsored Network installer that
|>is being worked on.
|
|
| I agree, but it's been "in development" for...I dunno..almost two
years now
| I think and it's still not released. I'm not slamming the -installer team
| -- I think they're a great bunch of guys, but it does point to our
| inability to execute.

It's actually had a 0.1 and 0.2 release. See
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 13:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Alec Warner
I think some people have attempted things that are interesting or
innovative, although they may not have gotten off of the ground quite
yet.
That's the problem. Lots of folks have great ideas. Our execution sucks,
though. We also have projects working against each other (or, at least,
not in step with each other)
Cite examples.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Alec Warner
The Gentoo Installer is an interesting project, not only for the
graphical frontend, but for the Distro-sponsored Network installer that
is being worked on.
I agree, but it's been "in development" for...I dunno..almost two years now
I think and it's still not released. I'm not slamming the -installer team
-- I think they're a great bunch of guys, but it does point to our
inability to execute.
Really? I seem to remember a nice news story with 2005.1's release
about an Installer LiveCD for x86. I also remember one for 2005.1-r1
for both x86 and amd64. For 2006.0, the Installer will be considered
the default method for installing Gentoo on x86, and possibly even amd64
(if they want). I also was planning on producing at least one more
LiveCD for another architecture for 2006.0...
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Alec Warner
The Portage project has some cool stuff coming up. I realize that the
2.X codebase scares a lot of people away due to it's nature but recently
there has been a lot more active development in features and planning.
Again, lots of talk, some code, but nothing we can point to and say, "look!
see that? We did that!!" and be proud of it.
Funny. I can. --newuse. That alone has been one of the best features
in portage in a long, long time. I find it absolutely amazing, as
before it was a nightmare to maintain Gentoo. Of course, this
"nightmare" was during your glory period of innovation.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Alec Warner
You can't really say "well your interest is useless so work on something
else instead" and expect them to comply.
No, but you can say, "this is the direction we've decided to go in. We'd
love to have you as part of the team, but if you want to go a different
direction, please take a copy of the source code, along with our blessings
and we wish you the best of luck."
Sounds like you'd rather take Gentoo back a few years to the days before
Hardened/Embedded/Alt. I guess we really should just be "Gentoo Linux"
and ignore all of the progress and work that has been made in all of
these other areas simply because it doesn't fit with your goals. I'd
like to also propose that we drop support for sparc, mips, sh, m68k,
s390, arm, and alpha, since they detract from our main goals of
providing amd64/ppc/x86 releases. After all, who really uses those
"other" arches anyway but a bunch of guys that never have good ideas or
improve quality of the distribution as a whole and constantly distract
us away from getting anything constructive done?
Post by Kurt Lieber
It's great to tinker and experiment with new things, but at some point,
those tinkerings will have interdependencies on other parts of the project.
So what?
Post by Kurt Lieber
People will need/want features added to <foo> in order for them to be able
to continue. If those features don't adhere to the overall direction that
has been chosen for the project, then they're taking time and resources
away from that direction, regardless of who does the actual coding.
So if I were to add some great new whiz-bang feature to portage that
would only be used in building releases for Hardened, it is a waste of
time even if I do all of the coding myself simply because that might not
be the overall direction where we are heading?

Dude, pass the pipe. I want some of what you're smoking.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 15:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Sounds like you'd rather take Gentoo back a few years to the days before
Hardened/Embedded/Alt. I guess we really should just be "Gentoo Linux"
and ignore all of the progress and work that has been made in all of
these other areas simply because it doesn't fit with your goals.
I've never stated any specific goals. I've simply said we should have
some. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I'd like to also propose that we drop support for sparc, mips, sh, m68k,
s390, arm, and alpha, since they detract from our main goals of providing
amd64/ppc/x86 releases. After all, who really uses those "other" arches
anyway but a bunch of guys that never have good ideas or improve quality
of the distribution as a whole and constantly distract us away from
getting anything constructive done?
straw man argument. Maybe the best direction for gentoo is focusing on
embedded, maybe it's focusing on x86, maybe it's dropping Linux entirely
and moving over to OpenSolaris and building tools around that. I never
stated any opinions in this area so why are you trying to state them for
me?

It's pathetic that we, as a distribution, cannot have a civil discussion of
any kind.

--kurt
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 16:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Sounds like you'd rather take Gentoo back a few years to the days before
Hardened/Embedded/Alt. I guess we really should just be "Gentoo Linux"
and ignore all of the progress and work that has been made in all of
these other areas simply because it doesn't fit with your goals.
I've never stated any specific goals. I've simply said we should have
some. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.
That says to me exactly what I stated that you said. Whether that was
your intention or not, I honestly do not know. However, I am not
putting words into your mouth, I am simply restating what you are saying
after my interpretation of it.
Post by Kurt Lieber
That person should figure out what Gentoo wants to be when it grows up.
S/he should carefully consult the various stakeholders, look at the
strengths/weaknesses of Gentoo as it stands currently and then figure out
where the best direction is for it to proceed. They should then be
responsible for making sure everyone (and I mean *everyone*) executes
according to this direction. Folks who disagree with the vision will be
able to go their own direction and start their own projects. That's the
beauty of the GPL.
Right here you are explicitly stating that *everyone* should follow the
party line. How exactly is what I have said false when your own words
say it?

"Play ball or go home" comes to mind.

At any rate, I had already apologized for the impression that you were
given of me putting words into your mouth, however the continued attacks
afterwards have made me reconsider and decide to go back and quote your
*actual* words to keep from causing any confusion on the matter.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I'd like to also propose that we drop support for sparc, mips, sh, m68k,
s390, arm, and alpha, since they detract from our main goals of providing
amd64/ppc/x86 releases. After all, who really uses those "other" arches
anyway but a bunch of guys that never have good ideas or improve quality
of the distribution as a whole and constantly distract us away from
getting anything constructive done?
straw man argument. Maybe the best direction for gentoo is focusing on
embedded, maybe it's focusing on x86, maybe it's dropping Linux entirely
and moving over to OpenSolaris and building tools around that. I never
stated any opinions in this area so why are you trying to state them for
me?
...and at what point in that paragraph did I say that you said any of
it? Also, I'm finding it hilarious to notice that a fellow native
English-speaking American is unable to recognize good ol' sarcasm in its
simplest form.
Post by Kurt Lieber
It's pathetic that we, as a distribution, cannot have a civil discussion of
any kind.
We have them all the time. We also have flame wars all the time. It's
simply a matter of doing business with over 300 people with a vested
interest and countless numbers of users, all with differing opinions.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Stuart Herbert
2006-01-05 16:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
That says to me exactly what I stated that you said. Whether that was
your intention or not, I honestly do not know. However, I am not
putting words into your mouth, I am simply restating what you are saying
after my interpretation of it.
For the life of me, I can't see how that quote of Kurt's you used there
backs up your statement in any way, shape, or form.

If you feel that it does, I believe there's been a major misunderstanding
there.

Best regards,
Stu
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 17:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
That says to me exactly what I stated that you said.
Then it's apparent we're not communicating well. I'll leave it at that,
thank you for sharing your opinions and put this thread to bed.

--kurt
Andrew Gaffney
2006-01-05 13:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
I agree, but it's been "in development" for...I dunno..almost two years now
I think and it's still not released. I'm not slamming the -installer team
-- I think they're a great bunch of guys, but it does point to our
inability to execute.
If you're not going to do some basic research before you go spouting off, then
shut up. The installer has had *2* releases so far (0.1 released with 2005.1 and
0.2 with 2005.1-r1). There were announcements in the GWN, on the -installer and
-dev MLs, and even on Slashdot! Have you been under a damn rock?
--
Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 13:33:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:00:42 +0000 Kurt Lieber <***@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| I agree, but it's been "in development" for...I dunno..almost two
| years now I think and it's still not released. I'm not slamming the
| -installer team -- I think they're a great bunch of guys, but it does
| point to our inability to execute.

Hm. So how long has it taken to get anon SVN up and running?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Corey Shields
2006-01-05 06:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec Warner
I think some people have attempted things that are interesting or
innovative, although they may not have gotten off of the ground quite
yet. I think for instance, that Stuart's webapp-config project is a
good idea, and while I also think his first attempt sucked, that perhaps
in the future it could be a great tool, especially for large virtual
host places. I think it sucks that he has gotten the flack from it here.
The Gentoo Installer is an interesting project, not only for the
graphical frontend, but for the Distro-sponsored Network installer that
is being worked on. I think many distributions lack tools in this area
and we can be interesting and helpful here.
The Portage project has some cool stuff coming up. I realize that the
2.X codebase scares a lot of people away due to it's nature but recently
there has been a lot more active development in features and planning.
Plus there is code in the savior branch to do some "interesting" things :)
Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

Where is the centralized vision that everyone is working together here that
people not directly related to each project will buy in to and therefore do
what they can to see it succeed? Where is the collaboration between groups
to make it happen? I think this has already been hashed out enough, but your
points can be drawn back to that. Portage team is running in one direction,
webapps another, GLI a third direction (while kicking anyone who wishes to
run with them in the nuts). In any structured environment I have worked in,
you have a heirarchy where everyone, down to the grunts, know where they are
heading as an organization, why they are heading that way, and what they can
do to help. Even though groups work on differing things, they know how those
things are directly affecting the end goal (mission statement, whatever)

Right now, Gentoo has it's cliques that come up with their own things, and to
get assistance from another clique you're gonna have to have some ties or
work real hard to sell your idea to them. It's too flat of a model to work
for any real innovation, else, as Kurt pointed out, we would have seen some
cool stuff in the past couple of years.
Post by Alec Warner
If this Gentoo project fails/falters (like you seem to think it is
heading) you are free to do the same, form your own project with it's
own set of rules and leader if you so choose.
Gentoo won't fail.. I don't believe that is what Kurt or Lance are saying. I
think the point was that Gentoo is not moving at the typical pace of OSS
development, and we believe that it is the organizational structure that is
holding it back.
Post by Alec Warner
Partially I ( as currently still a user at this point ) would like to
see a bit more project management. I see that webapps posted a monthly
meeting reminder to -dev, but how many projects really have meetings
that often? Do they accomplish anything? Should we have someone that
tries to attend most meetings to make sure things are going smoothly, or
going at all? Do we need to have slacking projects that get killed off
by the council as well as "slacker" council members?
Thanks for your comments.. As for management, anyone who reads "Five
Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni[1] will see all of the problems
that Gentoo has, as well as the potential Gentoo has if it worked well.

Cheers,

-C

[1] -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0787960756/104-9660666-9133512?v=glance&n=283155
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Daniel Ostrow
2006-01-05 06:13:14 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Corey Shields
Thanks for your comments.. As for management, anyone who reads "Five
Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni[1] will see all of the problems
that Gentoo has, as well as the potential Gentoo has if it worked well.
[/snip]

OK granted it is a shameless plug, but this book is so on point that I
finished it in one night. Not to say that that is any major accomplishment
it's a pretty short book. But it basically lays out in black and white what
is wrong with the way things are, and what could be done better. It really
was rather frightening how very much like Gentoo the small 'Board of
Directors' in this book is.
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
***@gentoo.org
Brian Harring
2006-01-05 06:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Shields
Where is the centralized vision that everyone is working together here that
people not directly related to each project will buy in to and therefore do
what they can to see it succeed?
We've had centralized visions for a long while. Recall use/slot deps?

See them available anywhere?

Vision ofr an installer? Yes, underway now, but the centralized vision
really didn't do jack for actually acquring folk to work on it, did
it (feel free to chime in agaffney since it's effectively yours now a
days).
Post by Corey Shields
Where is the collaboration between groups
to make it happen?
How many projects actually require collaboration amongst multiple
groups to pull it off? Yes, if it's infra related we're stuck waiting
on you guys to move, but where else is the intricate dependencies
between groups y'all seem to be seeing?

Don't get me wrong, there *are* dependencies between groups (everyone
reliant on toolchain fex). What I'm getting at is that the angle of
blaming communication for lack of progress is daft- the issue isn't
lack of communication, it's lack of _actual_ work being done.
Post by Corey Shields
Portage team is running in one direction,
webapps another, GLI a third direction (while kicking anyone who wishes to
run with them in the nuts).
Examples would be lovely.
Post by Corey Shields
In any structured environment I have worked in,
you have a heirarchy where everyone, down to the grunts, know where they are
heading as an organization, why they are heading that way, and what they can
do to help. Even though groups work on differing things, they know how those
things are directly affecting the end goal (mission statement, whatever)
Right now, Gentoo has it's cliques that come up with their own things, and to
get assistance from another clique you're gonna have to have some ties or
work real hard to sell your idea to them. It's too flat of a model to work
for any real innovation, else, as Kurt pointed out, we would have seen some
cool stuff in the past couple of years.
Post by Alec Warner
If this Gentoo project fails/falters (like you seem to think it is
heading) you are free to do the same, form your own project with it's
own set of rules and leader if you so choose.
Gentoo won't fail.. I don't believe that is what Kurt or Lance are saying. I
think the point was that Gentoo is not moving at the typical pace of OSS
development, and we believe that it is the organizational structure that is
holding it back.
Actually, here's where I'm going to get lynched- (both for bringing up
anon* after pissing y'all off by asking about it less then 24 hours
previously, and stepping on other toes).

Typical foss project is optimized for one thing, and one thing alone-
maximal usage of available resources. It has to be *easy* for folks
to contribute whatever time they have- this means eliminating as much
menial/manual work as possible.

Immediate access to most current source so they can raid it and patch
it, rather then splitting against an old version, then the maintainer
forward porting the patch to head fex is a huge issue. It wastes both
the maintainer's time and the random patch submitters time having to
juggle between revisions.

Further, foss has something of a rapid release cycle. We're actively
trying to move in the opposite direction if you consider the actual
implication of trying to widen the unstable keywording gap- I'm not
stating QA is bad, what I'm stating is that QA explicitly requires
delays built in (whether via multiple reviews by devs, or letting the
changes sit for a while).

End result of it is that it takes longer to get stuff out, with the
result waterfalling across the tree- cool nifty package x that has
bleeding edge dep y, with dep y sitting due to QA concerns for
example.

I've not yet actually touched on communication/sync'ing up between
volunteers either- that's further delays. For example, you've got
crazy/nifty feature X that must be glep'd. You've got realistically a
wait of a month before it's worth starting the actual work for it.

Yes, a month. Reason being that glep can be ixnayed, thus those with
half a brain aren't going to do work that could be shot down, they're
likely going to wait till the proposal is accepted *then* start the
work.

Probably pissing a selection of people off here (pardon, deal), but
the point is that this notion that introducing more communication/sync
up points isn't going to accomplish anything. Yes, it's required, but
foss is not your typical business work place (thank god).

Why has gentoo gotten slower as it's gotten larger? Because the lone
wolf developer has less bullshit to deal with, they can just hammer
towards their goal. Introduce more folk into it, waste more of their
time syncing up with each other, more time of those who see their
goal, know how to get their, having to run it past everyone who wants
to be know what's afoot.

Essentially, the more required sync up/communication built into how
things are done, the more bound you are to the slowest folk. Can only
run go as fast as your slowest member effectively.
Post by Corey Shields
Post by Alec Warner
Partially I ( as currently still a user at this point ) would like to
see a bit more project management. I see that webapps posted a monthly
meeting reminder to -dev, but how many projects really have meetings
that often? Do they accomplish anything? Should we have someone that
tries to attend most meetings to make sure things are going smoothly, or
going at all? Do we need to have slacking projects that get killed off
by the council as well as "slacker" council members?
Thanks for your comments.. As for management, anyone who reads "Five
Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni[1] will see all of the problems
that Gentoo has, as well as the potential Gentoo has if it worked well.
Not trying to stick it to you, but I think what you're pointing at as
good is fundamentally the issue here- more process tagged into gentoo
isn't going to help anything, just push us further towards
debianization (something that's bugged me for the last 18 months I
might add).

What I've seen with gentoo is bluntly, wasted resources (bit
intentional in some cases). We've been progressing more towards
keeping everyone in the loop rather then letting folks spring on ahead
and get things done (sometimes with a bit of a mess in the process).

Note I said 'intentional'; seems like people have been pushing for
gentoo as a whole to slow down (note the enterprise
concerns/complaints that hit the ml every 6 months for example).

Dunno. Maybe it's all a ramble, maybe you think I'm a loon, but final
point I'm going to make is that pushing for a global solution (whether
a BDFL or board or committee) totally is missing the actual issue-
that individuals get things done, the larger the # of folks involved
in progressing towards something the slower they're going to move.

Adding artifical sync ups/communications is a step towards slowing
things down further, not speeding things up.

Central vision, mission statements, etc, that crap, doesn't
actually accomplish anything; if someone is working towards something,
someone is working towards it. Extra beuracray/cruft doesn't
translate to code however, nor does it really enable faster production
of code.

~harring
Duncan
2006-01-05 10:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Harring
Note I said 'intentional'; seems like people have been pushing for
gentoo as a whole to slow down (note the enterprise
concerns/complaints that hit the ml every 6 months for example).
Dunno. Maybe it's all a ramble, maybe you think I'm a loon, but final
point I'm going to make is that pushing for a global solution (whether
a BDFL or board or committee) totally is missing the actual issue-
that individuals get things done, the larger the # of folks involved
in progressing towards something the slower they're going to move.
This man speaks my mind. That's one of the things I'm worried about with
the Enterprise Gentoo thing, and why I think it will make a better
separate project than part of Gentoo itself.

Anyone who thinks Gentoo isn't progressing simply isn't seeing the forest
for all the trees, as they say. Another way of putting it is that Gentoo
seems to be in that critical period after the honeymoon, it has hit its
middle-aged crisis. Reality has set in -- we're not going to magically
move mountains, as yes, a mountain /can/ be moved, see the history of the
Panama canal for instance, but it takes a *LOT* of work, a LOT of
investment, and sometimes even some deaths along the way. During that
time, progress may seem painfully slow, yet it never-the-less occurs.
What's the alternative, dumping the project and leaving it for dead? Then
all that work and investment, and all those deaths, /will/ be in vain.

OTOH, after a certain point, which Gentoo seems to have reached, throwing
more bureaucracy at a project, as seems to be part of the proposal here,
does more harm than good. I'm with Brian, here. If we want progress, we
gotta slack off on the regulation a bit and give the folks actually down
there getting their hands dirty some room to work, at least if we aren't
willing (or able) to get in there with them.
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 10:36:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:26:03 -0700 Duncan <***@cox.net> wrote:
| Anyone who thinks Gentoo isn't progressing simply isn't seeing the
| forest for all the trees, as they say. Another way of putting it is
| that Gentoo seems to be in that critical period after the honeymoon,
| it has hit its middle-aged crisis. Reality has set in -- we're not
| going to magically move mountains, as yes, a mountain /can/ be moved,
| see the history of the Panama canal for instance, but it takes a
| *LOT* of work, a LOT of investment, and sometimes even some deaths
| along the way. During that time, progress may seem painfully slow,
| yet it never-the-less occurs. What's the alternative, dumping the
| project and leaving it for dead? Then all that work and investment,
| and all those deaths, /will/ be in vain.

What makes you think we're not moving mountains? Getting 1.4 out of the
door was considered an amazing feat. Now we're doing the same thing
every six months, and it's largely going unnoticed. Is something only
an impressive accomplishment if it goes wrong and generates lots of
mess first?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Duncan
2006-01-05 13:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
| Anyone who thinks Gentoo isn't progressing simply isn't seeing the
| forest for all the trees, as they say. Another way of putting it is
| that Gentoo seems to be in that critical period after the honeymoon,
| it has hit its middle-aged crisis. Reality has set in -- we're not
| going to magically move mountains, as yes, a mountain /can/ be moved,
| see the history of the Panama canal for instance, but it takes a
| *LOT* of work, a LOT of investment, and sometimes even some deaths
| along the way. During that time, progress may seem painfully slow,
| yet it never-the-less occurs. What's the alternative, dumping the
| project and leaving it for dead? Then all that work and investment,
| and all those deaths, /will/ be in vain.
What makes you think we're not moving mountains? Getting 1.4 out of the
door was considered an amazing feat. Now we're doing the same thing
every six months, and it's largely going unnoticed. Is something only
an impressive accomplishment if it goes wrong and generates lots of
mess first?
I guess I didn't put it too well, but that's what I meant -- that yeah,
the mountain DOES get moved (and it's us, well, you, and as a user and
bug filer as well as dev group follower, I count myself too, to some
extent), but it's FAR more work than some imagined, so naturally, they end
up rather disillusioned once the reality sinks in.

The fact is that's a natural part of any maturing relationship, marriage,
work, volunteer, the relationship on has with their state and nation...
It happens, and if the relationship survives past it, it then often
matures and grows into something far more valued than one could have
possibly imagined back in that fantasy that lead to the disillusionment.

... But I'm going off into philosophy and it seems some don't think that
belongs on the list, so I'll stop.
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Carsten Lohrke
2006-01-05 19:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duncan
This man speaks my mind. That's one of the things I'm worried about with
the Enterprise Gentoo thing, and why I think it will make a better
separate project than part of Gentoo itself.
I agree mostly, too. Just that QA has more aspects than "cool nifty package x
that has bleeding edge dep y, with dep y sitting due to QA concerns", to
quote Brian. A QA team can work concurrently to other subprojects of Gentoo,
spot testing ebuild quality, checking e.g. for correct dependencies and
licenses (I stumpled about four false ones the last few months) and a lot of
other things without slowing development down. It's a pity, that we don't
have an proactive QA team.

The complaints about Gentoo having no direction, sound (at least in my ears)
more like "Gentoo is not heading in the direction I want to have it." - so,
attract developers who work with you on your goals (We don't have enough devs
anyways, ~10% unmaintained packages in the tree speak for themselves) within
Gentoo. I for one can't say we haven't seen a lot of improvements in
different subprojects, just that it takes time.
Post by Duncan
see the history of the Panama canal for instance, but it takes a *LOT* of
work

Odd comparison, having in mind how much lives it did cost.


Carsten
Andrew Gaffney
2006-01-05 13:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Shields
GLI a third direction (while kicking anyone who wishes to
run with them in the nuts).
What is your problem with the installer project? Over the past year or so, there
have been *2* people that complained about us treating them badly. The first
person was the genux guy. While he may not have deserved it then, I think most
of us can agree that he deserved it now :P The second complaint was from a
person that definitely deserved what he got. He was harassing us trying to use
the GPL to *force* us to give him the spec files used to generate the
experimental X LiveCD. We wouldn't give it to him because 1) we didn't have it
(wolf31o2 did), and 2) it would not work with the released version of catalyst.

What you don't see is the interaction with releng and the portage folks, the
people that are building their own CDs with the installer, the patches and
suggestions we accept from people who have used the installer, etc. Unless
you're actually going to do some research into our project before bitching about
it, please pick another project to harass.
--
Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 13:22:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 07:18:40 -0600 Andrew Gaffney <***@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| What is your problem with the installer project? Over the past year
| or so, there have been *2* people that complained about us treating
| them badly.

Hrm, have the arch teams really left you in peace for an entire year
now?
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Andrew Gaffney
2006-01-05 13:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
| What is your problem with the installer project? Over the past year
| or so, there have been *2* people that complained about us treating
| them badly.
Hrm, have the arch teams really left you in peace for an entire year
now?
I haven't heard a thing from the arch teams, unless, of course, you consider
yourself to be 2 entire arch teams. All I've heard from you is how the installer
sucks, python/parted doesn't fit in an initrd, nfs sucks so nfsroot for netboot
is out of the questions, etc. The only semi-constructive thing you've even given
me is "rewrite the whole thing in ash".
--
Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 13:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corey Shields
Where is the centralized vision that everyone is working together here that
people not directly related to each project will buy in to and therefore do
what they can to see it succeed? Where is the collaboration between groups
to make it happen? I think this has already been hashed out enough, but your
points can be drawn back to that. Portage team is running in one direction,
webapps another, GLI a third direction (while kicking anyone who wishes to
run with them in the nuts). In any structured environment I have worked in,
you have a heirarchy where everyone, down to the grunts, know where they are
heading as an organization, why they are heading that way, and what they can
do to help. Even though groups work on differing things, they know how those
things are directly affecting the end goal (mission statement, whatever)
Here's what I find funny. I work on a project whose main goal is to
work with the other projects to get our releases out the door. We
coordinate with *every* arch team, along with hardened, embedded, and
infrastructure. We coordinate with many herds and the portage team.
What exactly would adding some level of indirection via "middle
management" or even some "CEO" add us? Not a thing. All it would do is
add one giant bottleneck to our work, reducing productivity.
Post by Corey Shields
Right now, Gentoo has it's cliques that come up with their own things, and to
get assistance from another clique you're gonna have to have some ties or
work real hard to sell your idea to them. It's too flat of a model to work
for any real innovation, else, as Kurt pointed out, we would have seen some
cool stuff in the past couple of years.
...or just ask nicely. It's amazing how people really downplay the
powerful nature of civility.
Post by Corey Shields
Post by Alec Warner
If this Gentoo project fails/falters (like you seem to think it is
heading) you are free to do the same, form your own project with it's
own set of rules and leader if you so choose.
Gentoo won't fail.. I don't believe that is what Kurt or Lance are saying. I
think the point was that Gentoo is not moving at the typical pace of OSS
development, and we believe that it is the organizational structure that is
holding it back.
Who exactly are you comparing us to here? Mozilla? Gnome? KDE?

I see tons of claims but no examples. Show me the numbers.

Not to mention we *just* reorganized. The Council has had how many
meetings now? How exactly can you tell the capability of a structure
that hasn't even been in existence long enough to have any valid data to
compare against?
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 06:31:42 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:31:30 +0000 Kurt Lieber <***@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| We haven't done anything interesting or innovative over
| the last...year?

Codswallop. We've done lots of large, innovative changes. You've just
not been paying enough attention to have seen them, and the people
doing the changes haven't been going around screaming about it from the
rooftops.

If you'd like to see more interesting or innovative changes, start by
looking into how we can make it easier for developers to advertise what
they've been doing.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Tom Martin
2006-01-05 12:09:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:31:42 +0000
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
| We haven't done anything interesting or innovative over
| the last...year?
Codswallop. We've done lots of large, innovative changes. You've just
not been paying enough attention to have seen them, and the people
doing the changes haven't been going around screaming about it from
the rooftops.
If you'd like to see more interesting or innovative changes, start by
looking into how we can make it easier for developers to advertise
what they've been doing.
planet.g.o?
--
Tom Martin, http://dev.gentoo.org/~slarti
AMD64, net-mail, shell-tools, vim, recruiters
Gentoo Linux
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 12:24:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:09:09 +0000 Tom Martin <***@gentoo.org> wrote:
| > If you'd like to see more interesting or innovative changes, start
| > by looking into how we can make it easier for developers to
| > advertise what they've been doing.
|
| planet.g.o?

No, that's censored to only display what certain people want it to say
rather than the truth of what's going on.
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò
2006-01-05 14:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
No, that's censored to only display what certain people want it to say
rather than the truth of what's going on.
planet.gentoo.org/universe ?
I have yet to see anything, from rants to personal notes, that didn't got
there (for what I've wrote).
--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 12:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Exactly what a lot of folks will have kittens about; appoint a CEO, leader,
boss, manager, etc. (you know, all those corporate-type words that raise
the hackles of nearly everyone on this list.)
You mean the same thing that we *had* that caused the loss of quite a
few good developers and drove many people away from Gentoo before they
ever even learned of its values. Sounds like an excellent plan.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Right now, Gentoo is this gigantic, obese amoeba that just sort of sits in
one place. Different parts of it try to go in different directions, with
the net result being that the whole body never goes anywhere. We haven't
done anything interesting or innovative over the last...year? two years?
We have no effective leadership whatsoever. We spend far too much time
arguing amongst ourselves instead of working as a team towards a common
goal.
This is what I don't get. So what if Gentoo is an amoeba? Does it
really matter? Would you rather that we dropped Gentoo/ALT, Hardened,
Embedded, and anything else interesting just so we can focus on a "core
technology" of some sort? Remember that we are not out to make money.
We are a not-for-profit for a reason. We don't have to answer to
investors and shareholders.

Another thing that I see people fail to really comprehend is what
exactly "interesting and innovative" can we do? I would have thought
that the introduction of our Gentoo Linux Installer would qualify. What
about the Hardened LiveCD? Gentoo's Knoppix-style CD? All of the
working going into Gentoo for Mac OS X and Gentoo/BSD? The extension of
the embedded/uclibc stuff to many more architectures?

It seems as if just because something doesn't tickle the fancy of the
Linux World Expo corporate types it isn't important.
Post by Kurt Lieber
We should appoint one person to lead the project. Make sure that person
knows WTF they're doing, are respected by the right developers, has a good
vision for Gentoo and then let them make decisions. Expect people to
adhere to the decisions and, if they don't, invite them to find other
opportunities for their creative outlet.
Fine. I vote for vapier. So next time he tells you to touch his wang,
you better damn well listen. ;]
Post by Kurt Lieber
That person should figure out what Gentoo wants to be when it grows up.
Gentoo doesn't want to be anything. Gentoo is not a thing. Gentoo is a
*collection* of over 300 individuals. We are not some corporate entity
where individualism is destroyed for the corporate party line.

Honestly, it sounds to me like that is what you want.

I welcome you to fork Gentoo to do this. I'll be glad to assist you in
any way that I can without giving up my ideas for where I want to take
my projects within Gentoo. I respect that you should do the same,
rather than hijack the distribution as a whole for your own purposes.
Post by Kurt Lieber
S/he should carefully consult the various stakeholders, look at the
strengths/weaknesses of Gentoo as it stands currently and then figure out
where the best direction is for it to proceed. They should then be
responsible for making sure everyone (and I mean *everyone*) executes
according to this direction. Folks who disagree with the vision will be
able to go their own direction and start their own projects. That's the
beauty of the GPL.
So booting developers that have a technical reason for doing something
different should be the norm?
Post by Kurt Lieber
Anyway, I have no illusions of this idea ever being implemented in the
current Gentoo environment. /shrug. It was a good ride.
I'm glad to hear that. It really sounds like you are interested in
turning Gentoo into some worthless shell of what it is currently. Sure,
it'll have "added value" and "perceived worth" to the corporate drones,
but any room for innovation and creativity will have been completely
stifled by group think and yes men. Using your own example, you and
anyone willing to work under such conditions are more than welcome to
fork Gentoo. After all, you can use all of our work as you wish.
That's the beauty of the GPL.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Kurt Lieber
2006-01-05 14:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
This is what I don't get. So what if Gentoo is an amoeba? Does it
really matter? Would you rather that we dropped Gentoo/ALT, Hardened,
Embedded, and anything else interesting just so we can focus on a "core
technology" of some sort? Remember that we are not out to make money.
We are a not-for-profit for a reason. We don't have to answer to
investors and shareholders.
Gentoo will cease to be relevant if we continue as-is. Maybe not tomorrow
or next month, but within a couple of years, we'll be Just Another
Slackware. Personally, I don't want that. If other folks do, then that's
OK.
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I welcome you to fork Gentoo to do this. I'll be glad to assist you in
any way that I can without giving up my ideas for where I want to take
my projects within Gentoo. I respect that you should do the same,
rather than hijack the distribution as a whole for your own purposes.
"my own purposes" are simply that Gentoo remains relevant. I think it has
some great ideas and a great core technology. I'd hate to see for all that
to be relegated to some hobbyist distro that people tinker around on but
nobody takes seriously.

Maybe you have a different vision for Gentoo. If so, I respect that, but
please don't accuse me of trying to hijack anything. I expressed an
opinion and you took my words and twisted them against me. This is a
perfect example of why Gentoo's never going to go anywhere. We fight too
much amongst ourselves.

--kurt
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 14:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Chris Gianelloni
This is what I don't get. So what if Gentoo is an amoeba? Does it
really matter? Would you rather that we dropped Gentoo/ALT, Hardened,
Embedded, and anything else interesting just so we can focus on a "core
technology" of some sort? Remember that we are not out to make money.
We are a not-for-profit for a reason. We don't have to answer to
investors and shareholders.
Gentoo will cease to be relevant if we continue as-is. Maybe not tomorrow
or next month, but within a couple of years, we'll be Just Another
Slackware. Personally, I don't want that. If other folks do, then that's
OK.
What makes you think this? What empirical evidence do you have that
proves that Gentoo is dying? All I see is more and more people using
Gentoo for more and more things. Sure, Gentoo is no longer the talk of
the town that it used to be, but that's going to happen with any
distribution as it comes to age. It gets replaced in the news by the
new kid on the block that is the flavor of the week. Then again, I
don't see what's wrong with Slackware, so perhaps I simply can't follow
your train of thought.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I welcome you to fork Gentoo to do this. I'll be glad to assist you in
any way that I can without giving up my ideas for where I want to take
my projects within Gentoo. I respect that you should do the same,
rather than hijack the distribution as a whole for your own purposes.
"my own purposes" are simply that Gentoo remains relevant. I think it has
some great ideas and a great core technology. I'd hate to see for all that
to be relegated to some hobbyist distro that people tinker around on but
nobody takes seriously.
Who doesn't take us seriously? For that matter, who does? You want to
be taken seriously? Spend money on marketing Gentoo.

The only real issue I see with Gentoo's market penetration is that we
don't have the mind share necessary to continue to grow at the pace that
we once did. This is due to not only our reaching a certain critical
mass, but also because of relative newcomers such as Ubuntu that will
always pull a certain group of people. Once the next new hotness comes
out, those same people will jump the Ubuntu ship to whatever that new
flavor of the week happens to be. This is a pretty constant and
continual cycle within Linux. Again, I see you focusing solely on the
Linux aspect of Gentoo.

So what is Gentoo to you? Portage? Gentoo Linux?
Post by Kurt Lieber
Maybe you have a different vision for Gentoo. If so, I respect that, but
please don't accuse me of trying to hijack anything. I expressed an
opinion and you took my words and twisted them against me. This is a
perfect example of why Gentoo's never going to go anywhere. We fight too
much amongst ourselves.
Really, I don't have any vision for Gentoo and I like it that way. I
work to improve Gentoo. If that ends in Gentoo becoming the premiere
distribution for the enterprise, or simply the best distribution for
basing your own distribution from, I don't care. I work on Gentoo
because I enjoy it, not because I ever expected it to "go anywhere" at
all. Yes, I twisted your words against you. I'll freely admit it. Why
did I do it? I did it simply to prove a point. I am attempting to show
that what you are proposing is not very well thought out and really
reads to many people, not just myself, as "You should play ball my way,
or get off the court." Whether that was what you intended or not, that
is how it reads at least to me. I can now see that your intentions are
not quite what you originally implied, so I do apologise for it only
insofar as where I have misrepresented you, but my statements still
stand in all other regards.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Stuart Herbert
2006-01-05 14:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
So what is Gentoo to you? Portage? Gentoo Linux?
From www.gentoo.org:

Page title: "Gentoo Linux - Gentoo Linux News"

"We produce Gentoo Linux, a special flavor of Linux that can be
automatically optimized and customized for just about any application or
need. Extreme performance, configurability, and a top-notch user and
developer community are all hallmarks of the Gentoo experience."

The "about us" page also calls us "Gentoo Linux" at every term.

We're still claiming to be a Linux distro.

Best regards,
Stu
Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò
2006-01-05 15:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Herbert
Page title: "Gentoo Linux - Gentoo Linux News"
Yeah ok, let me end up these holidays, and I'll prepare a written request to
change the Linux part in something else (Land if you want to keep the L, or
I'll try to find a name we can use)... we deserve it as Gentoo/FreeBSD is at
a level not so far from Gentoo Linux, and Gentoo for Mac OSX is still going
on.
--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE
Michael Cummings
2006-01-05 17:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò
Post by Stuart Herbert
Page title: "Gentoo Linux - Gentoo Linux News"
Yeah ok, let me end up these holidays, and I'll prepare a written request to
change the Linux part in something else (Land if you want to keep the L, or
I'll try to find a name we can use)... we deserve it as Gentoo/FreeBSD is at
a level not so far from Gentoo Linux, and Gentoo for Mac OSX is still going
on.
I ask about the use of the phrase "Gentoo Linux" once upon ago, and I
think it was either grant or doug (heck, maybe it was the elusive
spider ;) that pointed out that there is "Gentoo Linux" - that's where
you install the kernel, baselayout, etc., and that's the part that can
never be dropped, and there's "Gentoo the MetaDistribution" which
includes the linux, but also includes the various ports. But in the end
- we still produce gentoo linux and adapt ourselves to other's os' (or
them to us as the case may be) as we can. i feel like i'm starting to
ramble, but the point is that first and foremost we are a linux distro
(would you put portage on slack? ubuntu? mandriva?) who also wears the
hat of a metadistro - the distinction being in the system built with
gentoo and the system built from gentoo...

~mcummings
Carsten Lohrke
2006-01-05 19:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò
Yeah ok, let me end up these holidays, and I'll prepare a written request
to change the Linux part in something else
You should also contact the folks working on the gentoo.org redesign. While
there was a bit of fuss about the infinity symbol, I always wondered why no
one lost a word against the "Linux" below, given that we claim to provide a
meta-distribution.


Carsten

Lance Albertson
2006-01-05 15:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Really, I don't have any vision for Gentoo and I like it that way.
Amazing words to come from Gentoo's release manager. We might as well
call our releases 'maintenance updates' then if thats the case.

I give up on this whole thread. I was hoping people would see past the
automatic "OMG!! We can't have a leader because it would restrict what I
can do!" mentality. But apparently that isn't the case here. Yes, we
didn't have the best experience with previous attempts at having some
kind of a leader. And automatically thinking that it'll turn into a
corporate bureaucratic mess is also incorrect. If you can open up your
mind and see past those automatic assumptions and see the value it would
be amazing.

Anyways, as I said. I give up on this getting anywhere.
--
Lance Albertson <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key: <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net
Patrick Lauer
2006-01-05 16:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Really, I don't have any vision for Gentoo and I like it that way.
Amazing words to come from Gentoo's release manager. We might as well
call our releases 'maintenance updates' then if thats the case.
I guess we're at a point where many parts "just work" - I still have
some ideas where Gentoo could be improved, but if Chris doesn't and
prefers to do some cat-herding I support him in his lack of vision ;-)

After all, without some level of QA / "managment" all those visions will
end in half-assed prototypes that almost work, but don't do much.
The mundane tasks of keeping the wheels greased so that others can
experiment around shouldn't be dismissed like that ...
Post by Lance Albertson
I give up on this whole thread. I was hoping people would see past the
automatic "OMG!! We can't have a leader because it would restrict what I
can do!" mentality. But apparently that isn't the case here.
You know as well as I do that any leader will only have a nominal
position
and most devs will just do what they want, bypassing such a person
whenever necessary. So for now we should focus on how to coordinate our
goals - if we agree that a "leader" is needed, why not, but we should
find out if that is even needed.
Post by Lance Albertson
Yes, we
didn't have the best experience with previous attempts at having some
kind of a leader. And automatically thinking that it'll turn into a
corporate bureaucratic mess is also incorrect. If you can open up your
mind and see past those automatic assumptions and see the value it would
be amazing.
But it's already getting too bureaucratic ;-)
It's getting more and more difficult to get things done, more and more
people / groups / herds to wait on to decide "obvious" things.
Post by Lance Albertson
Anyways, as I said. I give up on this getting anywhere.
That's the spirit. (just kidding, but it is kinda funny)

I noticed that Gentoo seems to have this cycle where all 3 months or so
the same theme comes up, causes a long discussion and then goes nowhere.
And then stuff does happen - maybe it's not obvious, but we're not yet
Debian ;-)

For example - our baselayout supports UML and vServer (almost fully)
native. Most of you won't see that, but to those that do it's something
that's really nice.

wkr,
Patrick
--
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 16:33:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:20:09 +0100 Patrick Lauer <***@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| It's getting more and more difficult to get things done, more and
| more people / groups / herds to wait on to decide "obvious" things.

Hrm, it is? Seems to me that it's no worse that it used to be. It's
just that the stalling points are in different areas.

As for obvious... For any problem there's at least one solution that is
both obvious and wrong...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Patrick Lauer
2006-01-05 17:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
| It's getting more and more difficult to get things done, more and
| more people / groups / herds to wait on to decide "obvious" things.
Hrm, it is? Seems to me that it's no worse that it used to be. It's
just that the stalling points are in different areas.
Hmmm ... I get the impression that there are more stalling points
Post by Ciaran McCreesh
As for obvious... For any problem there's at least one solution that is
both obvious and wrong...
Exactly :-) But I guess many among us have become a bit disillusioned and
try to stay away from what is perceived as useless trolling and silly
infights. So things either stall in discussion or get implemented with
the "obvious" flawed approach (early webapp-config and portage are good
examples) and then take a long time to become "fixed". There's still a
lot of good stuff happening, but as someone else said in this thread,
"we suck at execution" :-(

Patrick
--
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 16:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Really, I don't have any vision for Gentoo and I like it that way.
Amazing words to come from Gentoo's release manager. We might as well
call our releases 'maintenance updates' then if thats the case.
Why not? Does it really matter? They *are* maintenance updates. That
still doesn't change the fact that it is a "release" of some sort. Our
release media are simply better versions of past media. They offer more
hardware support and hopefully fewer bugs, but there isn't exactly a
whole lot else going on with them.

Even the new Installer LiveCD images that we are moving towards is
nothing more than a slow evolution from our current InstallCD/PackageCD
setup. It is a natural progression more than a huge leap. Sure, it
makes things much easier on new users, but it isn't exactly
revolutionary.

I also am not so presumptuous to say that what I do within Release
Engineering specifically impacts on what you guys do in infra on a day
to day basis, or what the portage team does, or what hardened does. We
all have our own directions. When our paths overlap, we cooperate.
When they do not, we stay the hell out of each other's hair.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Michael Cummings
2006-01-05 17:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Really, I don't have any vision for Gentoo and I like it that way.
I know you meant this as sarcasm - but i'd second that. I originally
favored just calling them snapshots since that's all the iso's were - a
snapshot of the tree on day X.

~mcummings
Stuart Herbert
2006-01-05 14:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
Maybe you have a different vision for Gentoo. If so, I respect that, but
please don't accuse me of trying to hijack anything. I expressed an
opinion and you took my words and twisted them against me. This is a
perfect example of why Gentoo's never going to go anywhere. We fight too
much amongst ourselves.
Hear hear.

I feel that one of the causes of this is that not enough of us know each
other well enough. We only ever manage to get a handful of developers in
the same place at the same time.

Something useful that the trustees & council could do is to organise an
annual Gentoo developer conference. Yes it will cost - but surely one
function of a layer of management is to find budgets? :)


Best regards,
Stu
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 12:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo is not anything more than
a loosely bound group of developers all doing their own thing in a
collaborative and collective manner. You cannot use corporate thinking
to manage such a beast. We don't have mission statements. We don't have
road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings and market projections. We
simply exist.
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Pander to the "enterprise" crowd, of course. You know, take away all of
the stuff that makes Gentoo what it is and slow down development with
more committees, peer review boards, and meetings. We need to all take
a step back and make sure that we're all a part of the "big picture" for
Gentoo. You know, subscribe to the group think.

Personally, I *love* the fact that the Hardened team has differing goals
from Release Engineering. I also don't see how our goals could ever
really be guided by a single vision. That doesn't keep us from working
together to each accomplish our individual goals.
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.
We need a mission statement first :)
Our mission: To seek out new life and civilization, and to bring Gentoo
to them, by force, if necessary. *grin*
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Dan Meltzer
2006-01-05 12:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Here are my random two cents
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo is not anything more than
a loosely bound group of developers all doing their own thing in a
collaborative and collective manner. You cannot use corporate thinking
to manage such a beast. We don't have mission statements. We don't have
road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings and market projections. We
simply exist.
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Ok, then what should Gentoo do to fix this percieved decline?
Pander to the "enterprise" crowd, of course. You know, take away all of
the stuff that makes Gentoo what it is and slow down development with
more committees, peer review boards, and meetings. We need to all take
a step back and make sure that we're all a part of the "big picture" for
Gentoo. You know, subscribe to the group think.
Personally, I *love* the fact that the Hardened team has differing goals
from Release Engineering. I also don't see how our goals could ever
really be guided by a single vision. That doesn't keep us from working
together to each accomplish our individual goals.
Apparently it does. How many huge threads have you seen lately that
accomplished nothing? How many threads have people started with great
ideas, only to give up in disgust because people cause a huge fuss
about small details, and nothing ever gets accomplished? Quite a few.
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Post by Greg KH
Post by Kurt Lieber
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.
We need a mission statement first :)
Our mission: To seek out new life and civilization, and to bring Gentoo
to them, by force, if necessary. *grin*
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
--
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 13:07:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:49:21 -0500 Dan Meltzer
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
| Apparently it does. How many huge threads have you seen lately that
| accomplished nothing? How many threads have people started with great
| ideas, only to give up in disgust because people cause a huge fuss
| about small details, and nothing ever gets accomplished? Quite a few.

Most of them get somewhere, eventually. They'd get there a bit faster
if we booted you, Duncan, Nathan and Alec from the lists, but I guess
the cost of doing that wouldn't be worth the gain. Sure, the odd thread
ends up going nowhere, but that's usually when the original idea isn't
implementable.

Look at the news GLEP, for example. Half the replies are worthless
drivel from morons. The remainder is extremely useful input. The GLEP
in its original form wouldn't have worked -- heck, I knew that when I
posted it for review. But it's getting there, and after another round
or two we'll end up with something that will work first time when it's
implemented. Better to spend a bit of time now having an extended
technical discussion (which differs from a flamefest, but only when you
look closely) than to go ahead and screw up the tree...
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 14:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Meltzer
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Personally, I *love* the fact that the Hardened team has differing goals
from Release Engineering. I also don't see how our goals could ever
really be guided by a single vision. That doesn't keep us from working
together to each accomplish our individual goals.
Apparently it does. How many huge threads have you seen lately that
accomplished nothing? How many threads have people started with great
ideas, only to give up in disgust because people cause a huge fuss
about small details, and nothing ever gets accomplished? Quite a few.
Sure, and how many are going on in the background without so much as a
peep because people are working together? Take *any* Gentoo release and
you'll see that an awful lot of work gets done without flame wars and
name calling. Sometimes bad things happen. Most of the time,
everything goes as planned.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Henrik Brix Andersen
2006-01-05 12:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Personally, I *love* the fact that the Hardened team has differing goals
from Release Engineering. I also don't see how our goals could ever
really be guided by a single vision. That doesn't keep us from working
together to each accomplish our individual goals.
Hear hear.

./Brix
--
Henrik Brix Andersen <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd
Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 12:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Lieber
On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 01:17:06PM -0500 or thereabouts, Chris Gianelloni
Gentoo is not a distribution of Linux. Gentoo is not anything more than
a loosely bound group of developers all doing their own thing in a
collaborative and collective manner. You cannot use corporate thinking
to manage such a beast. We don't have mission statements. We don't have
road maps. We don't have quarterly earnings and market projections. We
simply exist.
Which is why Gentoo has jumped the shark and is now on a long, slow
decline.
Strange, most indicators that I've seen are showing that we're still
gaining users and developers hand over fist.
Post by Kurt Lieber
Do you want to be a part of a project that doesn't allow you to
implement some cool new feature because it might make Gentoo slightly
harder to use for some people and that's against the mission statement
so not allowed?
Yes, absolutely.
No offense, but I have a feeling that you're in the wrong place, then.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Simon Stelling
2006-01-03 18:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donnie Berkholz
Not necessarily. I just wrote on my blog [1] about this, and got a
constructive comment [2], which I'll talk a little about.
Here's one example of a global goal: Reduce the learning curve of Gentoo
and increase its usability.
Sounds like a good idea, but as Ciaran already said, 'low learning
curve' and 'great usability' are just opposite things. Also, it is
*very* vague.
Post by Donnie Berkholz
- - Releng would work to ensure that installing Gentoo is as easy as
possible.
This is very vague too. Easy for who? Easy for a user who is too lazy to
read docs and doesn't have any experience or easy for a sysadmin with
plenty of experience trying to setting up Gentoo on a cluster with >100
boxes? I think this makes it pretty clear that there is not simply one
implementation referring to one idea, but I'm afraid that these 'goals'
could be misused to force a common direction instead of having multiple
efforts addressing the same idea in different ways.
Post by Donnie Berkholz
- - The portage team could conduct usability studies of portage (perhaps
with the help of openusability.org?).
'to conduct usability studies' sounds great, but it's IMHO not much
more. I don't need studies to point out annoying things from a user
perspective, I'm a user myself. Sure, feedback is good, but we already
get feedback, in the form of bug reports.
Post by Donnie Berkholz
- - Others
How do e.g. arches fit into this scheme? Yeah, sure, they make Gentoo
easier to use because they keyword stuff. Great. I'm really glad
somebody tells me why I am doing the stuff I've been doing for more than
a year.

So, the 'easy to learn/use' goal might be a goal that quite some
projects already are trying to attain, but it really isn't *THE* goal
for Gentoo, is it?
--
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
***@gentoo.org
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 19:59:49 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Simon Stelling wrote:
| Donnie Berkholz wrote:
|> - - Releng would work to ensure that installing Gentoo is as easy as
|> possible.
|
|
| This is very vague too. Easy for who? Easy for a user who is too lazy to
| read docs and doesn't have any experience or easy for a sysadmin with
| plenty of experience trying to setting up Gentoo on a cluster with >100
| boxes? I think this makes it pretty clear that there is not simply one
| implementation referring to one idea, but I'm afraid that these 'goals'
| could be misused to force a common direction instead of having multiple
| efforts addressing the same idea in different ways.

I'm guessing that the vast majority of our users have Gentoo installed
on one or a few computers, and are typical hobbyists. That's who I would
target with making things easier, while trying to avoid regressions in
the other cases.

That could certainly use some research though.

|
|> - - The portage team could conduct usability studies of portage (perhaps
|> with the help of openusability.org?).
|
|
| 'to conduct usability studies' sounds great, but it's IMHO not much
| more. I don't need studies to point out annoying things from a user
| perspective, I'm a user myself. Sure, feedback is good, but we already
| get feedback, in the form of bug reports.

OK, but you're one user. Maybe you are very unusual and 99 out of 100
other Gentoo users would do things totally differently.

| How do e.g. arches fit into this scheme? Yeah, sure, they make Gentoo
| easier to use because they keyword stuff. Great. I'm really glad
| somebody tells me why I am doing the stuff I've been doing for more than
| a year.
|
| So, the 'easy to learn/use' goal might be a goal that quite some
| projects already are trying to attain, but it really isn't *THE* goal
| for Gentoo, is it?

Who said we can only have one goal?

Thanks,
Donnie
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Lares Moreau
2006-01-03 18:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Stelling
My point is, either you have to generalize each project's goal to a real
triviality or you have to define a goal which doesn't match some
project's goals. Conclusion: Let it be.
Maybe we are looking at this problem the wrong way. Instead of trying
to have Gentoo be the distro, perhaps Gentoo can be thought of as a
provider of infrastructure and tools to allow 'sub-distros' to flourish.

THere are many projects which now are trying to pull Gentoo in many
different directions, such as bianary distro vs. enterprise distro. If
we remove "Gentoo as distro" from out thinking and replace it with
"Gentoo as provider of tools and infrastucture", These two seemingly
contradictory goals can each flourish in their own way.

Haveing sub-distros, lack of a better term, is not new to Gentoo.
Hardened has their own LiveCD, profile and tools. I feel this can be
nurtured. Allowing the Binanary group to move in one direction, and
'tweakers' in an other, and die-hard security people in yet another,
while not severely conficting with each other.


Maybe what we need is a clearer definition of what each herd does? I am
considering writing a GLEP about this, having each herd answer three
questions periodicly (say 6mths).
- What do we want to do?
- How are we going to get there?
- How to we measure success?
and /maybe/ add a section about current devs and AT/HTs.
Just a thought.
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Andrew Muraco
2006-01-05 04:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lares Moreau
Post by Simon Stelling
My point is, either you have to generalize each project's goal to a real
triviality or you have to define a goal which doesn't match some
project's goals. Conclusion: Let it be.
Maybe we are looking at this problem the wrong way. Instead of trying
to have Gentoo be the distro, perhaps Gentoo can be thought of as a
provider of infrastructure and tools to allow 'sub-distros' to flourish.
THere are many projects which now are trying to pull Gentoo in many
different directions, such as bianary distro vs. enterprise distro. If
we remove "Gentoo as distro" from out thinking and replace it with
"Gentoo as provider of tools and infrastucture", These two seemingly
contradictory goals can each flourish in their own way.
Haveing sub-distros, lack of a better term, is not new to Gentoo.
Hardened has their own LiveCD, profile and tools. I feel this can be
nurtured. Allowing the Binanary group to move in one direction, and
'tweakers' in an other, and die-hard security people in yet another,
while not severely conficting with each other.
Maybe what we need is a clearer definition of what each herd does? I am
considering writing a GLEP about this, having each herd answer three
questions periodicly (say 6mths).
- What do we want to do?
- How are we going to get there?
- How to we measure success?
and /maybe/ add a section about current devs and AT/HTs.
Just a thought.
I like your idea of having gentoo not being a distro, but moreso a
collection of tools. Mostly because gentoo's method of dealing with
problems (problems that binary distros tend to have, like keeping
software uptodate) are handled in a way thats just a tad more managable,
plus when multiple repo support gets added, its just another way that
gentoo can be customized and reflavored.

+1 for that thinking

Tux
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Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-05 12:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Muraco
I like your idea of having gentoo not being a distro, but moreso a
collection of tools. Mostly because gentoo's method of dealing with
problems (problems that binary distros tend to have, like keeping
software uptodate) are handled in a way thats just a tad more managable,
plus when multiple repo support gets added, its just another way that
gentoo can be customized and reflavored.
+1 for that thinking
I have to completely agree. I see Gentoo as what it is, according to
our own web page. We are a meta-distribution. We are a collection of
tools and services that can be customized to be what you want it to be.
That does not imply limiting what we can and cannot do in any way.

If I wanted to make an arm-only source-based hardened distribution
utilizing uclibc entirely, I could do so utilizing only the work that
has been put into our portage tree.

The problem seems to be that there are certain people who want things to
happen, but can't drum up the manpower to do so. Rather than work
harder at drumming up support, they wish to instead create a system
where our *volunteer* developers are *forced* to do what they want.

I'm sorry, but screw that.

You guys are more than welcome to go apply at Red Hat or Novell. Hey, I
hear SCO is still distributing Linux, too. They'll gladly give you the
mission statements and "direction" that you so desire.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
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Greg KH
2006-01-05 18:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
You guys are more than welcome to go apply at Red Hat or Novell.
Some of us already work for companies that produce other Linux
distributions or support the companies that do. :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Grobian
2006-01-02 19:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
Or call it proper hierarchy. Management. Probably all evil words, in
this context, but they for sure apply.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
It'd be almost ceo-like, but the council is still top dawg. Right now, I
view our group as a bunch of chiefs with no real single leader saying
"lets strive to do this". The main problem is, too many people fear
about such a person could turn into a dictator, so I'm not sure if this
could ever happen.
I wonder if any single person would be accepted?
If it isn't one person, then you would need to find two persons or even
more that are completely aligned and have the same visions. Since
leaders usually are charismatic and controversial where necessary to
achieve their goals, it is hard to find two that don't get conflicts,
stalling any vision to become a mission.
Post by Patrick Lauer
After all there is noone capable of forcing anyone to do anything as far
as I can tell - worst case you fork Gentoo (again) and don't resolve
the issues.
...or only resolve the ones that you care about. Your first sentence
forms the basis of the problem, IMHO.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
This person would be in constant contact of all the
groups and try to muck together what everyone is doing. They could
suggest things to help minimize user impact, maybe try to join two
projects if they are both working on a similar goal, thus minimizing the
workload. Stuff like that essentially.
Communication ... should happen anyway, but it seems to get more and
more difficult. Another layer of bureaucracy won't help that ...
Call it "bureaucrazy", or whatever you like. I think it has nothing
to do with bureaucracy at all. It's just a matter of having
communication on a high level, in order to get an overall view of
Gentoo. IIRC this is one of the tasks of the council, to align teams
somehow, for example.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
We need a good visionary. If such
a position were created, I also think that person's sole focus should be
that focus within Gentoo. (i.e. they aren't a major contributor for a
subproject in Gentoo). This position would take too much time for them
to keep those other duties.
... and you'd burn out a capable person within half a year I think
Depends on the person. Lance is just putting a lot of Mintzberg and
probably (work) experience on the table to apply it to Gentoo.
But ok, fine, if that's the case, gives a nice refresh rate :) (j/k)
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Well, you're not alone for sure ;) However, the amount of measures to
take, why and what are a bit of an open question to me. I do, however,
share your concerns of a missing 'Mission Statement'. It is a commonly
known problem and primary point of concern (ie. Heene).
--
Fabian Groffen
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Patrick Lauer
2006-01-02 20:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
Or call it proper hierarchy. Management. Probably all evil words, in
this context, but they for sure apply.
Well ... it's like every dev has a special title - Gentoo/MIPS gcc senior integration specialist and stuff like that ;-)
Doesn't resolve the communication / hierarchy issues, but makes us all
feel warm and fuzzy inside.
(I know I'm a bit evil here, but ...) what I think is needed is more
communication. Not more "discussing", trolling, yelling etc. etc. but
general info. Quite some time ago I tried to get some info from all
subprojects what they had been doing - security and docs replied, then a
bit later I think Alt and Toolchain gave a short "we're not dead yet".
If all projectss could agree to deliver a "mission statement", progress
report or whatever you wish to call it every $TIMEUNIT (3 months? 6
months?) it'd be really nice ... (and would make the GWN really exciting
*nudge nudge wink wink*)
Post by Grobian
If it isn't one person, then you would need to find two persons or even
more that are completely aligned and have the same visions. Since
leaders usually are charismatic and controversial where necessary to
achieve their goals, it is hard to find two that don't get conflicts,
stalling any vision to become a mission.
To extrapolate from that ... council etc. are incapable of doing "real work"? ;-)
Or in other words, a person is smart, people are dumb
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
After all there is noone capable of forcing anyone to do anything as far
as I can tell - worst case you fork Gentoo (again) and don't resolve
the issues.
...or only resolve the ones that you care about. Your first sentence
forms the basis of the problem, IMHO.
There are ways to get people to do what you want, but they are quite limited.
For example for QA reasons you can make people fix their ebuilds, but
that's about the limit of influence you can have right now.
Post by Grobian
Call it "bureaucrazy", or whatever you like. I think it has nothing
to do with bureaucracy at all. It's just a matter of having
communication on a high level, in order to get an overall view of
Gentoo. IIRC this is one of the tasks of the council, to align teams
somehow, for example.
I don't know if the council is the right group to get project progress
reports collected, but the point stands - communication is good :-)
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
... and you'd burn out a capable person within half a year I think
Depends on the person. Lance is just putting a lot of Mintzberg and
probably (work) experience on the table to apply it to Gentoo.
But ok, fine, if that's the case, gives a nice refresh rate :) (j/k)
<troll> I say we put ciaran first to that job ... </troll>
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Well, you're not alone for sure ;) However, the amount of measures to
take, why and what are a bit of an open question to me. I do, however,
share your concerns of a missing 'Mission Statement'. It is a commonly
known problem and primary point of concern (ie. Heene).
I guess we should decide on a problem before solving it :-)
Is the problem the lack of a mission statement? I don't see the need for
that, we all have our own definitions what a Gentoo is and why it's
cool. Trying to get that defined will be really tricky (and I predict a
smallish flamewar)

We already have a mission statement - to produce the best software
distribution, ever ;-)
Wether it should be Linux only, GNU-based or a metadistribution is a
rather touchy subject, so please try to keep the discussion
civilized ...

wkr,
Patrick
--
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move
Grobian
2006-01-02 20:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Grobian
If it isn't one person, then you would need to find two persons or even
more that are completely aligned and have the same visions. Since
leaders usually are charismatic and controversial where necessary to
achieve their goals, it is hard to find two that don't get conflicts,
stalling any vision to become a mission.
To extrapolate from that ... council etc. are incapable of doing "real
work"? ;-) Or in other words, a person is smart, people are dumb
Your words here. I don't follow your logic, and I don't see where your
statement comes from. I want to make explicit that -- in any case -- I
didn't mean my words like that.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I mostly agree :-)
Well, you're not alone for sure ;) However, the amount of measures to
take, why and what are a bit of an open question to me. I do, however,
share your concerns of a missing 'Mission Statement'. It is a commonly
known problem and primary point of concern (ie. Heene).
I guess we should decide on a problem before solving it :-)
Is the problem the lack of a mission statement? I don't see the need for
that, we all have our own definitions what a Gentoo is and why it's
cool. Trying to get that defined will be really tricky (and I predict a
smallish flamewar)
I reinserted your first response. It looks like you changed your mind
inbetween to me, and that you probably don't agree 'mostly' anymore?
Post by Patrick Lauer
We already have a mission statement - to produce the best software
distribution, ever ;-)
Wether it should be Linux only, GNU-based or a metadistribution is a
rather touchy subject, so please try to keep the discussion
civilized ...
Lance mentioned something about what he sees is a niche where Gentoo
does quite well. "Produce the best software distribution, ever" sounds
a bit vague to me. That's why I agree with Lance for now. Maybe after
a little research, trial and error period it turns out to be better to
keep the target vague.
--
Fabian Groffen
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Lance Albertson
2006-01-02 21:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grobian
Post by Patrick Lauer
We already have a mission statement - to produce the best software
distribution, ever ;-)
Wether it should be Linux only, GNU-based or a metadistribution is a
rather touchy subject, so please try to keep the discussion
civilized ...
Lance mentioned something about what he sees is a niche where Gentoo
does quite well. "Produce the best software distribution, ever" sounds
a bit vague to me. That's why I agree with Lance for now. Maybe after
a little research, trial and error period it turns out to be better to
keep the target vague.
Yeah, if we're content to being a hobbyist distro, then that mission
statement will work. But, the technology behind Gentoo has far broader
benefits for various things. Especially with the recent work of the alt
related subprojects, embedded, etc ... its changing. Like for me, I
would love to use the portage technology to build packages for solaris
machines I maintain at work. We have a build system currently, but its
nothing like portage. Gentoo is more than just Linux now and we should
have goals that fit that. When I say "we have a niche we're perfect at",
I'm mainly referring to the source-based nature of our OS. There isn't
another distro out there that does it as well as us and we should
improve on that fact. Let the other distros get better at being
binary-based.

Anyways, thats my thoughts.
--
Lance Albertson <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Patrick Lauer
2006-01-02 21:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Post by Grobian
Lance mentioned something about what he sees is a niche where Gentoo
does quite well. "Produce the best software distribution, ever" sounds
a bit vague to me. That's why I agree with Lance for now. Maybe after
a little research, trial and error period it turns out to be better to
keep the target vague.
Yeah, if we're content to being a hobbyist distro, then that mission
statement will work. But, the technology behind Gentoo has far broader
benefits for various things. Especially with the recent work of the alt
related subprojects, embedded, etc ... its changing. Like for me, I
would love to use the portage technology to build packages for solaris
machines I maintain at work.
While I do agree with you here there's still the problem that each and
every one of us has his (or her or its) own idea what "we" should do.

Some want the ricer flags and tweakability.
Others want to see one package manager to rule them all.
Then there's the "because we can" group.
The enterprise-oriented persons.

I wonder ... can we have one precise mission statement without
alienating a big part of our user base?
Post by Lance Albertson
We have a build system currently, but its
nothing like portage. Gentoo is more than just Linux now and we should
have goals that fit that.
I guess some people would like to disagree there. (Not me, I like that
whole "metadistribution thingy, it's the way to world domination)
Post by Lance Albertson
When I say "we have a niche we're perfect at",
I'm mainly referring to the source-based nature of our OS. There isn't
another distro out there that does it as well as us and we should
improve on that fact. Let the other distros get better at being
binary-based.
Why would one prevent the other from happening?
Maybe someone finds an elegant way for "Binary Gentoo" ... should we
stop that person because it conflicts with a weird mission statement?
--
Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move
Greg KH
2006-01-03 04:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
I wonder ... can we have one precise mission statement without
alienating a big part of our user base?
To copy another opensource group's mission statement,
"Total World Domination"

Hey, it's been working for them so far, and I don't think they would
mind it if it was copied by others :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Duncan
2006-01-03 11:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
When I say "we have a niche we're perfect at",
I'm mainly referring to the source-based nature of our OS. There isn't
another distro out there that does it as well as us and we should
improve on that fact. Let the other distros get better at being
binary-based.
Why would one prevent the other from happening?
Maybe someone finds an elegant way for "Binary Gentoo" ... should we
stop that person because it conflicts with a weird mission statement?
I believe that's where the differing opinions begin to come in. Here's
mine. I don't believe that Gentoo, /as/ /Gentoo/, will ever be very
successful as an Enterprise distribution, and I don't think that it can
every be very successful as a binary distribution, either. The things
that make us, that is Gentoo, unique, and the best in our area, by
definition are the /same/ sort of things that make a relatively poor
enterprise or binary distribution.

I'm all for a /separate/ enterprise effort based on Gentoo, and likewise,
all for a /separate/ binary targeted distribution based on Gentoo.
However, the goals are sufficiently different that I don't believe either
one will work well /as/ Gentoo, or, in the event that it /does/ work well,
it will change Gentoo into that image, and Gentoo won't continue to fit
the current niche, a relatively fresh "source based" distribution for
those who aren't afraid to take responsibility for managing their systems,
as well as it does.

What I expect will happen if we try, is that we won't be the sort of best
of genre solution in those other areas, that makes Gentoo what it is today
within its own "admin's source based distribution". At the same time,
splitting our efforts in that direction will end up weakening the Gentoo
we all know and love.

Rather, I'd prefer an independent distribution, Gentoo based is great,
some devs doing both is great, to do the enterprise stuff. Same with the
binary. There are of course already several smaller Gentoo based
mini-distributions, and I think that's the way to go. Doing it that way
will prevent fuzzing up our image and our drive, allowing us to continue
to be the best at what we are good at, while others get to focus on the
stuff they can be good at. Some devs will naturally be attracted to one
or the other -- not a problem. Others will find they can spend time on
both (or all three) projects and drive up personal productivity, much as
Greg KH seems to thrive on all his projects, managing to be more
productive on all of them than many devoting all their time to the
project. Again, that shouldn't be a problem, for those that can
effectively handle it, and for those that can't, well, it's a volunteer
situation, and as such, a natural solution tends to appear.
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html
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Chris Gianelloni
2006-01-03 13:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duncan
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
When I say "we have a niche we're perfect at",
I'm mainly referring to the source-based nature of our OS. There isn't
another distro out there that does it as well as us and we should
improve on that fact. Let the other distros get better at being
binary-based.
Why would one prevent the other from happening?
Maybe someone finds an elegant way for "Binary Gentoo" ... should we
stop that person because it conflicts with a weird mission statement?
I believe that's where the differing opinions begin to come in. Here's
mine. I don't believe that Gentoo, /as/ /Gentoo/, will ever be very
successful as an Enterprise distribution, and I don't think that it can
every be very successful as a binary distribution, either. The things
that make us, that is Gentoo, unique, and the best in our area, by
definition are the /same/ sort of things that make a relatively poor
enterprise or binary distribution.
I completely agree with you here. What Gentoo does is make a
meta-distribution, that one can utilize to build their own distribution
easily. This isn't limited to Linux, either, thanks to Gentoo/Alt.

I think that any single direction that we shoot towards will cause
friction internally and will reduce productivity, along with leaving
certain projects out. We're simply moving in too many directions to
have a single direction.

The biggest concern that I see here is a lack of communications, really.
We don't need direction. We just need some way for people to know who's
going where. I think Koon's "MetaBug" project would be an excellent
idea to assist in this. We need a body with some teeth to get things
done in a timely manner. We also need enforcement of some sort to
ensure projects are active and reporting information on their status.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
Mark Loeser
2006-01-03 22:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Post by Duncan
I believe that's where the differing opinions begin to come in. Here's
mine. I don't believe that Gentoo, /as/ /Gentoo/, will ever be very
successful as an Enterprise distribution, and I don't think that it can
every be very successful as a binary distribution, either. The things
that make us, that is Gentoo, unique, and the best in our area, by
definition are the /same/ sort of things that make a relatively poor
enterprise or binary distribution.
I completely agree with you here. What Gentoo does is make a
meta-distribution, that one can utilize to build their own distribution
easily. This isn't limited to Linux, either, thanks to Gentoo/Alt.
I think that any single direction that we shoot towards will cause
friction internally and will reduce productivity, along with leaving
certain projects out. We're simply moving in too many directions to
have a single direction.
+1

Each project has a direction they want to go in, and by setting some sort of
"global vision" we are only going to restrict this.
Post by Chris Gianelloni
The biggest concern that I see here is a lack of communications, really.
We don't need direction. We just need some way for people to know who's
going where. I think Koon's "MetaBug" project would be an excellent
idea to assist in this. We need a body with some teeth to get things
done in a timely manner. We also need enforcement of some sort to
ensure projects are active and reporting information on their status.
Sounds good as well. I'd like to see all of the projects/teams saying what
their goals are, or what they have done to move towards their goals.
--
Mark Loeser - Gentoo Developer (cpp gcc-porting toolchain x86)
email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web - http://dev.gentoo.org/~halcy0n/
http://www.halcy0n.com
Lance Albertson
2006-01-03 22:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Loeser
Post by Chris Gianelloni
Post by Duncan
I believe that's where the differing opinions begin to come in. Here's
mine. I don't believe that Gentoo, /as/ /Gentoo/, will ever be very
successful as an Enterprise distribution, and I don't think that it can
every be very successful as a binary distribution, either. The things
that make us, that is Gentoo, unique, and the best in our area, by
definition are the /same/ sort of things that make a relatively poor
enterprise or binary distribution.
I completely agree with you here. What Gentoo does is make a
meta-distribution, that one can utilize to build their own distribution
easily. This isn't limited to Linux, either, thanks to Gentoo/Alt.
I think that any single direction that we shoot towards will cause
friction internally and will reduce productivity, along with leaving
certain projects out. We're simply moving in too many directions to
have a single direction.
+1
Each project has a direction they want to go in, and by setting some sort of
"global vision" we are only going to restrict this.
I never meant that each subproject can't have their own goals. They need
to have those of course! I was more directed that there isn't a person
in charge of all the subprojects just to keep track of them (Not
governing them). i.e. if subproject foo is working on adding feature X
to portage, then this person could make sure the portage people know
that these folks are wanting to add that feature instead of blind siding
them. Of course, if we lived in a perfect world, they would go ahead and
work together like that. I'm not stating that we'd want to restrict
everyone from doing what they want, just that there's some kind of
direction/guidance/overall project manager that keeps track of all these
projects. They would keep track of all this and report back to the
council/devs/etc.

We've gotten to the size that trying to get everyone communicating with
everyone is getting difficult. Having someone overseeing these things
might help development and make sure everyone is on the same page.
--
Lance Albertson <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Mark Loeser
2006-01-04 00:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Post by Mark Loeser
Post by Chris Gianelloni
I completely agree with you here. What Gentoo does is make a
meta-distribution, that one can utilize to build their own distribution
easily. This isn't limited to Linux, either, thanks to Gentoo/Alt.
I think that any single direction that we shoot towards will cause
friction internally and will reduce productivity, along with leaving
certain projects out. We're simply moving in too many directions to
have a single direction.
+1
Each project has a direction they want to go in, and by setting some sort of
"global vision" we are only going to restrict this.
I never meant that each subproject can't have their own goals. They need
to have those of course! I was more directed that there isn't a person
in charge of all the subprojects just to keep track of them (Not
governing them). i.e. if subproject foo is working on adding feature X
to portage, then this person could make sure the portage people know
that these folks are wanting to add that feature instead of blind siding
them. Of course, if we lived in a perfect world, they would go ahead and
work together like that. I'm not stating that we'd want to restrict
everyone from doing what they want, just that there's some kind of
direction/guidance/overall project manager that keeps track of all these
projects. They would keep track of all this and report back to the
council/devs/etc.
So, is this something like Koon's "MetaBug" thing? (I have no idea what that
is besides what Chris just said about it). I just don't want to see someone
else telling the subprojects how to run their team, or what goals they should
have.
--
Mark Loeser - Gentoo Developer (cpp gcc-porting toolchain x86)
email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web - http://dev.gentoo.org/~halcy0n/
http://www.halcy0n.com
Lance Albertson
2006-01-02 19:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
A mission statement only goes so far. The underlying leadership has to
make sure that statement is upheld and kept alive. Too many folks have a
mission statement, but no one ever remembers what it is or abides by it.
I guess there isn't one driving force behind Gentoo - we have many
differing opinions on things like QA, handling of bugs, ...
It's just that usually Gentoo gets the least in your way when you're
trying
to do something :-)
See, thats the exact problem we have. Its too opinionated with no ground
rules. Nothing ever gets done, and flame wars just go on. Sure we have
the council, but minor things shouldn't have to wait on the council to
meet each month. Such a person would only have one vote on the council
IF it were ever decided they even had a vote on there. (Perhaps a tie
breaker type of thing, though I think we already have an odd number of
council members)
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
I guess I'm almost hinting at that Gentoo needs a single entity that's
sole purpose is to drive/research the direction and goals for Gentoo.
There was this Robbins guy ... remember him? ;-)
Of course, but that was then, this is now. We can't play by the same
rules as when Daniel was around.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
It'd be almost ceo-like, but the council is still top dawg. Right now, I
view our group as a bunch of chiefs with no real single leader saying
"lets strive to do this". The main problem is, too many people fear
about such a person could turn into a dictator, so I'm not sure if this
could ever happen.
I wonder if any single person would be accepted?
After all there is noone capable of forcing anyone to do anything as far
as I can tell - worst case you fork Gentoo (again) and don't resolve
the issues.
That's what I fear might be the only solution because of the
indecisiveness we are as a group.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
This person would be in constant contact of all the
groups and try to muck together what everyone is doing. They could
suggest things to help minimize user impact, maybe try to join two
projects if they are both working on a similar goal, thus minimizing the
workload. Stuff like that essentially.
Communication ... should happen anyway, but it seems to get more and
more
difficult. Another layer of bureaucracy won't help that ...
Its not another layer of bureaucracy. Its the bonding part of the
communication that will help. We can't assume that everyone will
communicate everything they need to. This person would ensure they got
in contact with every group regularly. They won't govern what those
groups do, just summarize and report back to the council who has the
authority.
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
We need a good visionary. If such
a position were created, I also think that person's sole focus should be
that focus within Gentoo. (i.e. they aren't a major contributor for a
subproject in Gentoo). This position would take too much time for them
to keep those other duties.
... and you'd burn out a capable person within half a year I think
Possibly, I mean look at what happened to Daniel. Of course, there were
other reasons going on, but I do realize such a position would be
demanding. Why else do CEOs get paid the big bucks in the corporations?
:) (Since they essentially do the same type of work).
Post by Patrick Lauer
Post by Lance Albertson
Dunno, maybe I'm the loner here thinking this...
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I mostly agree :-)
Yeah, maybe so :-)

Reflecting on this more, I see that most of the council members are a
very important part of the active Gentoo development model (toolchain,
etc). They need to keep those roles active as much as possible, then
help on the council. I guess I view this person as a sole chairmen of
the board that just focuses on council type duties and roles. I think
the current council has lots of great people, but they're all busy with
their subprojects and can't take on a role like this. We really need a
single voice to bind everything together, but doesn't have total control
like Daniel did.

Hopefully I'm making sense...
--
Lance Albertson <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Chandler Carruth
2006-01-02 21:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Yeah, maybe so :-)
Reflecting on this more, I see that most of the council members are a
very important part of the active Gentoo development model (toolchain,
etc). They need to keep those roles active as much as possible, then
help on the council. I guess I view this person as a sole chairmen of
the board that just focuses on council type duties and roles. I think
the current council has lots of great people, but they're all busy with
their subprojects and can't take on a role like this. We really need a
single voice to bind everything together, but doesn't have total control
like Daniel did.
Hopefully I'm making sense..
As perhaps a good way of thinking of this, the common term used in
commitees (as I have interacted with them in various beaurocratic
situations) is a "non-voting chair". This person would organize,
schedule, direct, communicate, and facilitate the work of the committee,
to allow the voting members to more effectively handle the issues
arising for the committee. The voting members need not take on much of a
workload to vote and serve on the committee because most (if not all) of
the time consuming tasks and aspects of the committee are handled by a
non-voting chair. Simultaneously, the singular nature of the chair is
less of a concern because they are non-voting. The lack of a vote checks
their singular power, while still allowing them to very efficiently
organize and direct information in and out of the committee. *shrug* I'm
not entirely sure that I agree or disagree with this solution, but
wanted to give an example of what (I think?) Lance is getting at here.

That said, I do think _some_ direction needs to be given to the project,
although how best to achieve it is quite fuzzy to me. Lance's
proposition does have potential, but I worry over the competence and
dedication of the individual to fill that role.

-Chandler Carruth, yet another gentoo user.
--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Andrew Muraco
2006-01-02 21:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chandler Carruth
Post by Lance Albertson
Yeah, maybe so :-)
Reflecting on this more, I see that most of the council members are a
very important part of the active Gentoo development model (toolchain,
etc). They need to keep those roles active as much as possible, then
help on the council. I guess I view this person as a sole chairmen of
the board that just focuses on council type duties and roles. I think
the current council has lots of great people, but they're all busy with
their subprojects and can't take on a role like this. We really need a
single voice to bind everything together, but doesn't have total control
like Daniel did.
Hopefully I'm making sense..
As perhaps a good way of thinking of this, the common term used in
commitees (as I have interacted with them in various beaurocratic
situations) is a "non-voting chair". This person would organize,
schedule, direct, communicate, and facilitate the work of the
committee, to allow the voting members to more effectively handle the
issues arising for the committee. The voting members need not take on
much of a workload to vote and serve on the committee because most (if
not all) of the time consuming tasks and aspects of the committee are
handled by a non-voting chair. Simultaneously, the singular nature of
the chair is less of a concern because they are non-voting. The lack
of a vote checks their singular power, while still allowing them to
very efficiently organize and direct information in and out of the
committee. *shrug* I'm not entirely sure that I agree or disagree with
this solution, but wanted to give an example of what (I think?) Lance
is getting at here.
I'm not sure if this would apply, but in the US Government System, the
supreme courts are basicly a committee (or council, which ever word you
like better), the "leader" (Chief Justice) of the supreme court doesn't
have any extra power, but has extra duties, and has senority over the
other Justices. Perhaps a situation like that would the Gento Council,
or maybe it should stay in the Justice System.

wkr,
Andrew
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Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 05:35:48 UTC
Permalink
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Lance Albertson wrote:
| Mike Frysinger wrote:
|
|
|>If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
|>vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
|>Gentoo dev list to see.
|
|
| Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
| Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
| changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
| been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
| about any ground breaking enhancements.
|
| Since the council is the closest representation to a leader we have, I'd
| like to ask if they can come up with some kind of global goals for 2006
| and beyond. You don't need to come up with goals by this meeting if you
| haven't had time, but at least by the February meeting. Each group can
| have their own goals, but we lack any overall binding goals or
| direction. We've brought on numerous devs in the past year, and I have
| yet to see a huge improvement in QA or anything else. Numbers aren't
| everything. If anything, it makes it harder to maintain good QA.

Why don't we start at a smaller level and see where we get? In other
words, we can build the big picture goals from where our projects and
subprojects are going.

Now that projects can be freely created, I see no reason that any herd
or any developer in Gentoo cannot be part of a project. Each project
could come up with its goals and directions, and we could see how (or
whether) they fit together.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Thierry Carrez
2006-01-03 08:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
about any ground breaking enhancements.
Since the council is the closest representation to a leader we have, I'd
like to ask if they can come up with some kind of global goals for 2006
and beyond. [...]
Yes, the Gentoo Council can / should set some global goals for 2006, and
should probably discuss about this in the January meeting so that they
can be set in stone by the February meeting.

That said, we weren't elected as "managers" but as "global visioners",
so we don't really have any power to force people to do some work in an
area in which they don't want to. We can say "it would be good to reach
that" then follow progress using the regular meetings, but we can't make
it happen just by saying it must be done.

One example of such point is the portage signing thing, which the
council already set as a global goal and for which is follows progress
at every meeting, but we can see that doesn't mean a lot of work is
done. We still need a group to coordinate such goals, much like what the
security team does with security bugs (call the right people at the
right time rather than doing any committing work). That's what I called
the "MetaBug taskforce" in various metastructure proposals. If we don't
have people that want to form (and work in) such a group then we can set
as many global goals as we want and follow as much progress as we
want... it won't get us very far.

In brief, we need the team to coordinate such goals, even more than we
need global goals.
--
Thierry Carrez (Koon)
Gentoo Linux Security & Gentoo Council Member
--
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Grant Goodyear
2006-01-03 16:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Lance Albertson wrote: [Mon Jan 02 2006, 12:14:05PM CST]
Post by Lance Albertson
Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
about any ground breaking enhancements.
Assuming that we can ever get GLEP 42 out the door, I think that will
constitute ground-breaking. There has actually been a considerable
amount of progress on the Portage front, as well, although not all of
the new stuff is out yet. Similarly, the slowly-rolling website
redesign is truly on the verge of being released. We also have had
excellent modular X11 support for some time now, and it appears that
gcc-4.x support is doing quite well, too.

Oh, and we've also retired an amazing number of no-longer-active devs,
so I don't know if it's actually true that we've added numbers.
Post by Lance Albertson
I'm not sure of the exact solution. Its just been pretty frustrating
lately hearing folks complain about this and that when I know that we
could do so much better. Maybe we're just happy with being where we're
at. I know I'm not. There's a niche that Gentoo fits really well and I
think we should focus on perfecting that niche instead of trying to be
better than distroA or distroB.
Okay, so you're not happy with Gentoo's direction, but what are you
actively doing to change it? (Other than starting this discussion, that
is?) I don't mean that question as an attack, although it may well
appear that way. It's also not directed at you, since others have
made similar comments. Instead, I'm suggesting that the reason that Gentoo
lacks a leadership position right now is that, at least where Gentoo is
concerned, effective leadership generally means an individual who is
putting in a _lot_ of hard work writing code and implementing changes.
That's one of the reasons that drobbins could be effective--he had the
time to extend portage, work on the website to fit his vision, and make
sweeping changes to the tree. In that respect, I would argue that
Gentoo's most leader-like person right now is vapier, because he's a dev who
actively enacts wide-ranging changes. Similarly, flameeyes, ciaranm,
and the portage team all deserve credit for having a significant impact
on where Gentoo has been going recently. (Yes, I also realize that
people may not agree with some of what those devs have been
doing, but they have been out there getting their hands dirty, and it
makes a huge difference.)

*Shrug* My feeling is that Gentoo is not advancing all that quickly
right now, but that it's being maintained fairly well. More
importantly, we still ensure that people _can_ make sweeping changes, if
they want to put in the work to do so. I'm actually fairly confident
about Gentoo having a decent future.

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
***@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76
Lance Albertson
2006-01-03 20:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Goodyear
Lance Albertson wrote: [Mon Jan 02 2006, 12:14:05PM CST]
Post by Lance Albertson
Gentoo has been missing some kind of direction/goal for some time now.
Looking back at the last two years, what are the major
changes/accomplishments that we have done? Granted, I know there has
been great strides in improvement in some things, but I really wonder
about any ground breaking enhancements.
Assuming that we can ever get GLEP 42 out the door, I think that will
constitute ground-breaking. There has actually been a considerable
amount of progress on the Portage front, as well, although not all of
the new stuff is out yet. Similarly, the slowly-rolling website
redesign is truly on the verge of being released. We also have had
excellent modular X11 support for some time now, and it appears that
gcc-4.x support is doing quite well, too.
Oh, and we've also retired an amazing number of no-longer-active devs,
so I don't know if it's actually true that we've added numbers.
All of those of course are true. I guess I'm thinking more in the large
picture of things. Retiring non-active devs isn't something I'd exactly
call 'ground breaking' :-). I know there are things being worked on now
that will probably be in that category. I was mainly looking at the long
term flow of ground breaking progress we've made. Sure, we've made lots
of great improvements, but I'm concerned that we have too many
subprojects all working in their little world and no one really looking
over the whole project making sure things flow together well. There's no
one out there who's responsibility is to track all these subprojects and
make sure things are flowing right.
Post by Grant Goodyear
Post by Lance Albertson
I'm not sure of the exact solution. Its just been pretty frustrating
lately hearing folks complain about this and that when I know that we
could do so much better. Maybe we're just happy with being where we're
at. I know I'm not. There's a niche that Gentoo fits really well and I
think we should focus on perfecting that niche instead of trying to be
better than distroA or distroB.
Okay, so you're not happy with Gentoo's direction, but what are you
actively doing to change it? (Other than starting this discussion, that
is?) I don't mean that question as an attack, although it may well
appear that way. It's also not directed at you, since others have
made similar comments. Instead, I'm suggesting that the reason that Gentoo
lacks a leadership position right now is that, at least where Gentoo is
concerned, effective leadership generally means an individual who is
putting in a _lot_ of hard work writing code and implementing changes.
That's one of the reasons that drobbins could be effective--he had the
time to extend portage, work on the website to fit his vision, and make
sweeping changes to the tree. In that respect, I would argue that
Gentoo's most leader-like person right now is vapier, because he's a dev who
actively enacts wide-ranging changes. Similarly, flameeyes, ciaranm,
and the portage team all deserve credit for having a significant impact
on where Gentoo has been going recently. (Yes, I also realize that
people may not agree with some of what those devs have been
doing, but they have been out there getting their hands dirty, and it
makes a huge difference.)
Sigh, I get the impression that you think I wrote this email just to
start another long drawn out debate. I know what you're talking about
above and I somewhat agree on what you're saying there. We all have our
limited amount of time and energy to work on things. There are days I
wish I could just devote 100% of my time to Gentoo to improve those
areas I want to. But sadly, I cannot do that so this is my one attempt
at getting a feel for our group to see where they see us going. If I had
more time and energy, I would try to do more active things.
Post by Grant Goodyear
*Shrug* My feeling is that Gentoo is not advancing all that quickly
right now, but that it's being maintained fairly well. More
importantly, we still ensure that people _can_ make sweeping changes, if
they want to put in the work to do so. I'm actually fairly confident
about Gentoo having a decent future.
I have no worries about people actually getting things done. What I'm
concerned about is that there's no true direction of where things will
go. Everyone has their own way of doing something, without any kind of
proper overall plan. I know the GLEP system is designed to help with
that (which is it). I'm looking at more of overall direction in Gentoo,
not specific things. We all have different opinions on how things should
be done and nothing ever seems to be totally decided on. Sure we have
the council, but I really haven't seen any direction from them on where
Gentoo should go. We have debates on the mailing lists that seem to
never go anywhere. Is everything that's debated on there needing to go
through a GLEP, or how do such things get decided with a final say?

I dunno, I just get the impression that people fear having a goal to
work on and would rather just let things work out in a random way (like
they have been for a while now). I'm not wanting to take the fun out of
this, but I feel more structure and less redtape would help make us move
forward faster and better.
--
Lance Albertson <***@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Donnie Berkholz
2006-01-03 20:35:20 UTC
Permalink
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Hash: SHA1

Lance Albertson wrote:
| All of those of course are true. I guess I'm thinking more in the large
| picture of things. Retiring non-active devs isn't something I'd exactly
| call 'ground breaking' :-). I know there are things being worked on now
| that will probably be in that category. I was mainly looking at the long
| term flow of ground breaking progress we've made. Sure, we've made lots
| of great improvements, but I'm concerned that we have too many
| subprojects all working in their little world and no one really looking
| over the whole project making sure things flow together well. There's no
| one out there who's responsibility is to track all these subprojects and
| make sure things are flowing right.

Shouldn't that be the council's job?

| I dunno, I just get the impression that people fear having a goal to
| work on and would rather just let things work out in a random way (like
| they have been for a while now). I'm not wanting to take the fun out of
| this, but I feel more structure and less redtape would help make us move
| forward faster and better.

More structure and less red tape ... How do those two work together? I
feel like they're connected -- a more structured organization will have
more bureaucracy and more red tape.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Lares Moreau
2006-01-03 20:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donnie Berkholz
More structure and less red tape ... How do those two work together? I
feel like they're connected -- a more structured organization will have
more bureaucracy and more red tape.
To me red tape means that there are odd and peculiar steps in the
process. Make the tape clearly defined, and have no exceptions; everyone
plays by the same rules, no back doors.

Perhaps - more structure with easy-to-use tape - would be a better way
of phrasing it.
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Grant Goodyear
2006-01-03 22:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Lance Albertson wrote: [Tue Jan 03 2006, 02:09:43PM CST]
Sure, we've made lots of great improvements, but I'm concerned that we
have too many subprojects all working in their little world and no one
really looking over the whole project making sure things flow together
well. There's no one out there who's responsibility is to track all
these subprojects and make sure things are flowing right.
That's quite true. Of course, I would argue that it's true because
nobody has volunteered to do that job. Of course, there'd be no real
authority with that sort of position, since if devs don't want to work
on a project they probably will not do so, so all that could really be done
would be to have a group of people tracking the various projects and
encouraging or cajoling progress. That said, having either an informal
or formal group in that role could still be quite useful.
Sigh, I get the impression that you think I wrote this email just to
start another long drawn out debate.
No, I actually think you wrote this e-mail to voice your concerns, and
that your motives are pure. *Shrug*
I have no worries about people actually getting things done. What I'm
concerned about is that there's no true direction of where things will
go. Everyone has their own way of doing something, without any kind of
proper overall plan. I know the GLEP system is designed to help with
that (which is it). I'm looking at more of overall direction in Gentoo,
not specific things. We all have different opinions on how things should
be done and nothing ever seems to be totally decided on. Sure we have
the council, but I really haven't seen any direction from them on where
Gentoo should go. We have debates on the mailing lists that seem to
never go anywhere. Is everything that's debated on there needing to go
through a GLEP, or how do such things get decided with a final say?
I agree with many of these statements, but I disagree to what extent
there's an actual problem here. Yes, there is little real "direction"
to Gentoo. I think that's a reality of having a mid-life volunteer
distribution. Our devs choose the parts of the distro that are fun for
them to work on, and consequently it is difficult to motivate people to
work towards any particular plan if that plan involves "not-fun" things.
As such, the best way to get something decided with a final say is to
provide not just an idea, but a working implementation. Then it's easy,
since either the implementation is good enough, or it is not. That sets
the bar rather high, though, so the second best method is to have a
strong advocate who's willing to keep slogging away at an idea.
I dunno, I just get the impression that people fear having a goal to
work on and would rather just let things work out in a random way (like
they have been for a while now). I'm not wanting to take the fun out of
this, but I feel more structure and less redtape would help make us move
forward faster and better.
I really don't believe that fear of goals is much of a problem. I think
the problem, instead, is a lack of sufficiently exciting goals, and a
concomitant lack of people sufficiently motivated to shepherd those
goals to a successful conclusion.

I think I'll stop here, since I'm not expressing my thoughts all that
well. *Sigh*

-g2boojum-
--
Grant Goodyear
Gentoo Developer
***@gentoo.org
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
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Sven Vermeulen
2006-01-03 17:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Albertson
Since the council is the closest representation to a leader we have, I'd
like to ask if they can come up with some kind of global goals for 2006
and beyond.
I couldn't agree more, yet I'm afraid Gentoo has grown too large to do this
efficiently. Many ideas are easily marked as WONTFIX (due to resource
restrictions), CANTFIX (since it would mean a rewrite of Portage) or
WORKSFORME (when /your/ way works). And when a proposal makes it to the
mailinglist, only a small number of developers is interested in
participating. The majority doesn't care, and a vocal minority tries
everything in its power to prevent the project from succeeding.

What could Gentoo bring out as a global goal for 2006 which isn't part of a
single Gentoo project? Things like "Have an automated installer" (Installer
Project), "Document enterprise usage of Gentoo" (Documentation Team), "Port
Gentoo to ReactOS" (Gentoo/ALT), "Introduce signing of all Portage Tree
files" (Portage Team), ... are all great accomplishments if they succeed
(note: some of the above are hypothetical, in case you are wondering :) but
only span one project.

In my opinion, all projects should bring out global goals for themselves.
The Gentoo Global Goals for 2006 would then be an overview of those goals.
Yet the Gentoo Council doesn't bring any input here.

There are some interesting ideas on the Gentoo Forums that aren't situated
in any of the current projects, such as "Top-100 Feature Requests" [1], "Gentoo
Binary profile" [2], "Gentoo Knowledge Base" [3], "USE-flag triggered
software installation" [4], etc.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen

[1] A site where the community can vote (one vote per bugzilla account?) on
feature requests (or bugs), could be integrated in bugzilla if that's
possible, but can also be a separate site where the feature request is
formed dynamically (wiki?) or by discussion (forum).
[2] A profile that freezes CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS/CHOST/USE/... and uses a build
server to build binary packages for that binary-package profile. The
project should not focus on the end result itself but rather on how all
this is accomplished using Gentoo and how companies and organisations
can easily implement a similar environment
[3] Something like Microsoft's KB where common issues are well explained,
resolutions documented and where a good search mechanism is in place to
help find the right solution. Would require moderation so that solutions
are correct. Could provide dual solutions: one community-written (open
wiki), one developers accepted (moderated wiki).
[4] Setting a USE flag triggers the installation of some recommended
software so that novices don't need to search for the right software.
Fex: USE="kde cdr" -> kde-meta + k3b
--
Gentoo Foundation Trustee | http://foundation.gentoo.org
Gentoo Council Member

The Gentoo Project <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>
Sven Vermeulen
2006-01-03 17:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Vermeulen
There are some interesting ideas on the Gentoo Forums that aren't situated
in any of the current projects, such as "Top-100 Feature Requests" [1], "Gentoo
Binary profile" [2], "Gentoo Knowledge Base" [3], "USE-flag triggered
software installation" [4], etc.
[...]

(Sorry, pressed "send" too soon).

However, having such proposals is great, but they need to be worked out by
one or more users and formed into a GLEP. Such GLEPs can then be discussed
on the mailinglist and sent for "approval" to the Gentoo Council.

Now this is where the Gentoo Council comes in: its role is to /advise/
Gentoo's development, not regulate. If GLEPs come occasionally, there is
barely any reason not to positively advise to implement GLEP. After all, if
there are issues with it they would either be broken down during the
mailinglist discussions, or they are broken down when the teams themselves
refuse to implement them.

When several GLEPs require (immediate) attention, the Council will try to
advise where the priorities should be placed (which GLEP goes first).

When several GLEPs interfere with each other, the Council will try to advise
which GLEP is most beneficial for Gentoo and its community.

Some people hope to see the Council as a regulating body. Forget it,
developers are the brains that lead Gentoo's evolution, voluntary work is the
blood that keeps Gentoo rolling, the community is the heart for which
we all work. As such, there is no single regulating body.

And as much as I hope to see a select few bring bright ideas, coördinate
projects and make everyone's work easier, I have seen too many attempts that
kill bright ideas to know far from everyone would be happy with such a
situation.

Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
--
Gentoo Foundation Trustee | http://foundation.gentoo.org
Gentoo Council Member

The Gentoo Project <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>
Alec Warner
2006-01-03 23:53:19 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've actually been tinkering with this idea for a whole mostly due to
the gross amount of crazy crap that is posted to gentoo-wiki.com ( no
offense to the site which otherwise does a great job ). However I was
under the impression that the docs team wanted things GuideXML'd and not
wikified ( cvs stuff and all ). Are you willing to host Quasi-official
docs ( ie dev approved ) on something not GuideXML, or how exactly would
that work, and I realize we should probably move this to the docs list
so I'll cross-post and subscribe ;0
Post by Sven Vermeulen
[3] Something like Microsoft's KB where common issues are well explained,
resolutions documented and where a good search mechanism is in place to
help find the right solution. Would require moderation so that solutions
are correct. Could provide dual solutions: one community-written (open
wiki), one developers accepted (moderated wiki).
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--
gentoo-***@gentoo.org mailing list
Aron Griffis
2006-01-05 17:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lance,

You started this thread by proposing that: (1) Gentoo is lacking
a direction/goal, (2) this is supported by the lack of ground breaking
enhancements in the past couple of years. Later in the thread you
proposed that (3) the solution may be to appoint a single person to
provide a global goal/direction for the project.

Looking first at 1 and 2, I think your assumption that ground-breaking
enhancements are dependent on direction/goal is false. IMHO any
single project within Gentoo can bring ground-breaking enhancements to
the distribution without being given prior direction from a higher
authority. The places where Gentoo needs improvement are generally
well-known, and any developer has the power to bring a design and
implementation to the table. The problem here isn't a lack of
direction, it's a lack of action, particularly in the areas that *you*
consider ground-breaking. What in particular would you like to see?

So, keeping in mind that any developer can bring a plan to the table,
my understanding of the council is this: In cases where a plan
requires broader changes, the role of the council is to make sure that
the plan makes sense in the context of Gentoo, where "context" is
defined as history, philosophy, and the collection of goals defined by
the other projects. It is not the role of the council to cook up the
plan, that can be done by any developer(s), including council members
if they have any brilliant ideas. ;-)

Finally, looking at 3, that statement depends on the relationship
between direction/goal and ground-breaking enhancements. If that
relationship does not exist, then 3 is moot: Appointing a single
individual to lead the project will not have an effect of generating
ground-breaking enhancements.

Personally, I agree with Grant's and Chris's comments in this thread.
There have been some positive changes in the past couple years, and
there are people working hard to bring more about. Hopefully we're
cultivating an environment where the next major enhancement is just
around the corner. What will it be? I'm in favor of leaving that to
the individual projects to determine.

Regards,
Aron

--
Aron Griffis
Gentoo Linux Developer
Ciaran McCreesh
2006-01-05 16:36:12 UTC
Permalink
On 01 Jan 2006 05:30:01 Mike Frysinger <***@gentoo.org> wrote:
| If you have something you'd wish for us to chat about, maybe even
| vote on, let us know ! Simply reply to this e-mail for the whole
| Gentoo dev list to see.

Could you discuss adopting one of the clauses I proposed in the "RFC:
disallowing multiple votes per person in council meetings" thread?

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=113467833000002&r=1&w=2
--
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium)
Mail : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
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